Problem with tyre or wheel?

[Tony]

Do the wheels have hub caps?

[andyelcomb]

Knackered dampers are much more common than you might think. Just this morning on the M20 I passed one van and one car, both with a rear wheel that was clearly undamped.

Neither were particularly scabby machines, but both were around 55 plates.

If a full wheel balance doesn't sort a vibration or shake problem then checking the dampers should be the next investigation.

[Tony]

I need to adjust my thinking on dampers and vibration then.

[bojcistv]

You should definitively do that Tony...More than 90% vibration on the car suspension is picked up with shocks....On the "sharp" and "precise" suspension with much steering and surface response like it is on new Fords, Honda's and BMW worn shocks could be source of much troubled vibrations than people use to suppose ...I am looking in few shocks manufacturers guides for self inspection on shocks and one of the first sign they are pointing in is the vibrations on the steering wheels....On my

Mondeo 2 years ago the worn shocks were source of shacking vibrations during the braking....so the role of shocks aren't just dealing with the long amplitude vibrations but very wide scale of those amplitude...from lowest to the highest....

In this case I was confused although the first thing I had on my mind were shocks cause i changed them before almost 2 years so i just couldn't believe they are worn...

 

P.S. I hope you can understand me since i am native english speaker....cheers...

[bojcistv]

 

check this few topics:

http://www.checkyourshocks.com/

http://www.monroe.com/support/Symptoms/Worn-Shocks

 

[Vipercar93]

I have no hope then in finding bad shocks through vibrations... My wheel shakes with just my engine on and my rear view mirror, and my gear shift... and.. and... Ok you get the point.

 

I knew you could pick up funky vibrations with bad shocks, but didn't think it would be noticeable until they were all but gone.

[bojcistv]

Shocks ability to pick up the vibrations is decreased through the time they are in use. First you can notice it on their inability to deal with the tiniest vibrations with highest amplitudes that are present on the higher speeds. Your car is running smooth and nice on the lower speeds and you can't hear any knock sound or excessive bounce cause shocks still has ability to get those lower amplitude vibrations but as the time is passing you will find they are really bad and can't pick up any vibrations...but in that time they are let's say 75% or more worn and you should change them when they loose 25% or 30% of their ability....

[bojcistv]

Some update on this thread and agony with the vibrations. Till now i have changed passenger side drive shaft since the inner cv joint has play inside and shocks as well.... nothing helped....vibrations are still there....

one of my friend mechanics said it might be worn hydro-bushing on the lower wishbone arm since they are filled with some sort of oil inside and they can cause those vibrations in the wheel hop frequency....any experiences...any advises......i am on the edge and just one step to set this damn car on fire....i can't believe no one can find those silly vibrations cause....like it is an space ship not common middle classed car....ufff

[bojcistv]

Hello to all!

 

I haven't been here for awhile....

I have some idea what could be cause of the vibration i have felt since the august last year.

Today while I was washing the car i saw how bad my rear brake disc is warped. There are two "canyons" on it.

I remember last year my rear break pad had been so badly worn that metal on metal contact were established and it caused some damages on the disc. I haven't payed so much attention on that since in the few days those bad pads had been changed and i forget about it. 

Today I changed my winter tyres and put back my Uniroyal summer types back on the wheels. I finally found the garage with the proper and brand new balancing machine. So, while I was on my way home I felt those vibrations from the rear end again. It shows up on the 120 km/h sharp and i think it doesn't stops but just change the freq with the speed so it is still there on the higher speed. I noticed my passenger seat is vibrating.

In fact they were there on the winter tyres as well but it wasn't so noticeable or maybe i managed to deal with it and don't pay any attention on this. Since the Uniroyal tyres are back on the car vibration are there again in the same let say that way strength.

Last year no matter i had done those vibrations from the rear end been there on the 120 km/h. The difference were there no matter i was drove one with winter or summer tires but it is much stronger with the summer.

I am wondering is it possible that rear discs can produce that vibrations. The fact is that one of them is really looks bad warped since i was drove the car few days with no brake pad but on the metal on metal contact that made those two warp lines on the disc.

I know it is possible (steering wheel wobble and brake juddering) when the front disc are warped but is it the case with the rear discs? 

[Rich]

If they are that badly warped then replace them and see if it helps. It can't be doing any good how they currently are.

[Tony]

Warped disc's will vibrate under braking but more importantly a binding caliper will cause a constant vibration once the disc gets hot and expands...... You need to feel for any difference in the wheels temperature after a few miles driving.

[bojcistv]

Here I come again

So, after few month of trying to find out what is going on with my tyre balance I found this post here on site http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=3887&hl=%2Broad+%2Bforce and it seems very simmilar to my problem. 

I wrote about silly vibrations I had through all the car on 120 to 140 km/h speed. Most of those cured with replacing of hydro bushings on lower arms but (there is always those "but") even though I have changed it I felt slight vibration through my steering wheel or through my "butt" on the seats. It's very variate since on some road surfaces it occurs but on some doesn't but most the time I can feel it in driving and it makes me very nervous and I really don't know what to do more. Surfing on the internet I found so many testimonies of people suffering those strange vibrations on the steering wheel that couldn't have been solved on matter how much balancing and re-balancing has been done. Generally speaking in my own case balancing is working only few days. What does it mean? Well, after I do the balancing in the tyre shop or garage things are changed positive (although not completely solved) and few days later and few hundreds km driven those vibs are coming back regularly. I see people speaking about road force balancing as the method of perfect matching rim with the tyre and solving as many of those imbalance as possible today. While I was reading the post linked here it crossed my mind once while I had done rear wheels balancing in one tyre shop equipped with the old fashioned balancer machine I have seen the old guy who worked there turn the tyre on the rim by some 180 degrees or so and after that balancing I got out on highway and I was amazed by the smoothness of ride in my car. No vibs, nothing.... Unfortunately after few weeks vibs were back on the front wheels again but not so much and as i said not on every surface. Since few days ago those vibs become pretty bad and it feels like all car is shaking (it is so annoying for me....) while i am driving at between 120 and 140 km/h speed. 

I don't know if any one in my region has that road force balance machine (i am in doubt were any of the mechanics here has ever heard about it) but I see the guy with the BMW who start the topic I linked here talk about stud plate method Tony used in way to balance tyre. Is it possible to check those run outs of the rim/tyre matchings by using this method or I will be pushed to find the shop equipped with this miracle Hunter GP road force balance machinery in the Balkan region ?

Thanks in advance....

Bojan 

[Tony]

The vibration is obviously a chassis frequency saturation point and i can understand different levels of saturation in the bushings -V- ambient temperature and this will add inconsistency toward the complaint regarding when the vibration starts.

 

The machine we use watches the wheel and tyre run-out and it decides if the tyres low/ high point needs to be moved and it decides where on the rim. That combined with a "studded" pick-up point should offer perfection. Roll force measures a different area, mainly construction imperfections as well as true balance issues. I'm not so sure the need for Road Force is so desperate in the real world? Look at it in reality, the tyres are made in batches, if a flaw existed it would involve many tyres but in my 35yrs+ i have never heard of a batch being recalled due to a construction/ balance issue!

[bojcistv]

Tony thanks for quick response. I spoke with the Hunter certified distributor in Croatia and he pointed me to the people in another town here in Bosnia who are equipped with the Hunter Gsp9700 machinery. I phoned them and they told me their machine do static and dynamic balancing and simulate road condition and very kind guy mentioned run out measuring and matching wheel and tire run out points in order to annihilate forces by whom imbalances are produces. In this recent two years with my Uniroyal tires I feel this wheel and tires run out points aren't match since the vibrations on my car between 120 and 140 are like i am driving on egg shaped wheels. Some of it vibs had been solved with hydro bushings replacement but some of it hadn't. The last guy who did the balancing of my rear wheels was really old and very experienced mechanic did something that no one hasn't done before. He turned inflated tire on the rim for about 180 degrees and I asked him what did he do since he had done it without any measuring or putting on any machine. He said it will most probably solve my complain on rear side vibs and he was in right. After I had been driven some time on highway I couldn't recognize my own car. It was smooth and such a pleasant drive. Few days later vibs on the front wheels occurred and in recent days those vibs increased so I thought I may to try find the garage equipped with the machinery who does the same like you have in your garage Tony since I think it is my trouble in fact. Those run-out non-match points between wheel and tire. The guy who did the try to solve that did that without any machine and i think it is crucial to be done by proper machine like those previous stated Hunter machine is. 

[Tony]

No, the real problem is being missed here!

 

A wheel doesn't "unbalance" itself after a few days, fact!. If your feeling benefit/ solution from each balance episode then is it possible your misreading the results? I would seriously move on now since all the attempts made toward balance have had the same return...... My next vision would be drive train.

[bojcistv]

Interesting. I was in garage today and mechanic who previously did the balancing on the front tires said something like you did Tony. And he obviously thought I am lunatic and someone who should go to the treatment. He said too "wheels can't be unbalanced by itself" but he took my car to try since he did previous balancing. He got back pretty much confused and on the edge to apologize me. His statement to his mate mechanic "Car is shaking up and down like driving on the egg shapped wheels between 120 and 140 km/h and steering wheel shake up and down too" and he said they can't solve it since they don't have machinery for it. Their machine just do common balance.

I will try Hunter machine and after that I will sell the car and close account on forum.

Thanks.

[bojcistv]

Drive-train checked and mechanics found everything in great shape. No air or play in any joint or suspension parts. 

[Tony]

Roll force balance is the only way for now then.

[bojcistv]

I am going in the service with that machine. Unfortunately it is 130 km from my home so I will have to do it in saturday. It is amazing that no mechanic here in my town don't know about "match mounting, radial force variation, lateral run out" or such terms. Just do the common balancing which is obviously not enough. Or they are not interesting since the most drivers are satisfied with the normal imbalance issues solved that way here.

In the end it is such a shame professionals don't want to learn or to improve their business.

[Tony]

Ashamed to say it's the same here in the UK, 1/3 of my business is putting this right! As an instructor i train trainers and other instructors for some of largest fast-fit operations in the EU and i'm horrified at their level of basic understanding. It's for this reason i can't belittle failures at floor level because staff can only apply knowledge if this has been applied to them.

[bojcistv]

So we in Bosnia aren't worst in the world, aren't we . I am not saying I am glad cause of it but for me as common man it is pretty hard to believe that in UK as a part of the Western world and considered as developed country such things are even possible....It seems that everywhere in the planet people do on their jobs in the way they don't interfere with at all, they don't want to get involved in their own and basic job and if you are showing any initiative or hunger for knowledge you would be labeled as an "smart as..."

 

I am also amazed by the size of myth and legends presence in the work of nowadays mechanics (you can't mix mineral and synthetic engine oils since it will destroy your engine, there are no such things like run out in tire lateral direction since it is annihilated by cars weight and so on...)

 

I am an lawyer and I might say that in some things about automotive I am more in knowledge then so many so called "experienced" mechanics just because on the end of the day I am surfing some half and hour or so on the internet and read something about what i am interested in. Do they have any internet surfing about basic terms of their job? Unfortunately no....

Any way thanks for the interesting in my trouble with this issue. I will update this issue in the saturday after get back from Hunter's miracle machinery

[Tony]

Thanks for the swapping of comparisons over the waters, it would seem this gray area is global. 

 

The problem here in the UK is mechanical, lets add geometric correction/ calibration is unregulated. All the owner has is liability laws in the event misconduct can be proved. The motor trade is essentially self regulated offering premisses born on nothing more than internal SOP's ( Standard Operational Procedures )  all of which means nothing if there's no regulation.

[bojcistv]

Yes something like that is present here too. It is more than grey area since in most cases you don't have even basic SOP's neither any garage owner is demanded to have any of it. Some of my friends who own some garages told me were they follow every producer SOP's for deal with their parts more people to deal with the papers should be employed  then car mechanics. Everyone build walls to protect their own skin so we little common people are completely unprotected even in the lights of Consumers protection Bill/Laws regulation since the articles of that paper are more than silly when you (if you ever) get to the point you are going to appeal or start any procedure against the any garage (since it is very hard and so expensive to even try to prove that damage had done by direct acting of the garage in creating that consequence). In generally, cause of that people in garages thinks I am an lunatic who just wants to walks from garage to garage in order to solve some silly vibration that exist only into my head!!! I am thinking about "Carry some gun and speak silent" method for getting their attention

[Tony]

With all problems there is a solution, it's just having the skill to isolate the reason for the complaint. I think here in the UK vibration is deemed as low priority and low return so very little real attention is offered...... Bad isn't it. 

[bojcistv]

When you talking about it my friend had an trouble with knocking noise on the left side on his Mondeo and when he got to the official Ford garage they heard the sound (so it wasn't only in my friends head) but their answer was "It should be like that!?". I advised him to check his shocks since I had an similar situation and he did it. Off sure culprit was worn shock on the front left side and the silly part of the story young guy who still goes in the school and who worked on practice in one independent Ford garage here, found that trouble very easy following procedure described in the school books!!! I have impression that nowadays mechanics aren't interested to do any repairs more complicated than changing the motor oil, fuel, air and oil filters and eventually some bulbs.