_Al_ Posted August 8, 2013 Report Share Posted August 8, 2013 Hi all, I'm a new user recommended to come here by the MR2OC.co.uk guys. I have a very serious problem with my car, and it's proving impossible to sort out. Since I bought it, the steering wheel has vibrated above 50mph. Stupidly I accepted the car like this thinking it was something simple and I could sort it easily. Symptoms: as you pass 50mph there is a sort of gentle "thunk" through the steering wheel, as if something moved a few mm. That's rapidly followed by another, as if it hit something else and bounced off. The frequency of "bumps" quickly builds until the steering wheel is writhing in your hands. Funny thing is it then comes and goes as you drive along, with the period between "perfectly normal" and "pulling your shoulders out" varying from a few seconds to almost 15minutes. Normally it's about 30 seconds. It does this regardless of the road conditions, speed (well, above 50) and any steering or braking inputs. Changing gear has no effect (i.e. varying the engine revs at the same speed) Braking via the pedal has no effect Applying the handbrake has no effect Dropping into neutral and letting the engine idle has no effect Sharp steering inputs don't seem to do anything, nor do gentle ones. I've spent quite a lot trying to solve this, and taken it to eight separate garages, one specialist, many enthusiasts and had a good go at many things myself. The cars has had a number of checks.... Balancing of all four wheels (5x) Driveshaft play Engine mounts Gearbox mounts Four wheel alignment (2x) Wheel rim run out Bake disc run out Hub run out Bearing play Steering rack play Steering rack preload Bushes (condition and play) Steering damper (condition and play) Steering column UJs (condition and play) Sub frames (condition and security Sub frame captive bolts (torque, security) Chassis (straightness, cracks, corrosion) And, because checking things just didn't work I've replaced some parts (deep breath); Loose bodywork Arc liner (was loose and rubbed) Top mounts Springs Shocks Hubs Bearings Tie rods & bushes Track rods Track rod ends (outer) Track rod ends (inner) Ball joints (all four) Break discs (all four) Break pads (all four corners) Brake callipers (all four) Steering rack Spigot rings (5x sets) Wheels (four sets now, all four corners, one standard set) Tyres (five sets, all four corners, one set standard 15s) Wheel nuts (two sets, all four corners) Steering wheels (three off, one standard) We've also tried disconnecting bits, just in case; Traction control ABS Power steering So, for anyone still with me, you're probably wondering why this is so important to me that I've gone to these lengths to track it down. Thing is, we're not talking about a mild irritation here. The car is actually unbolting itself as it drives along. Getting underneath and re-tightening the passenger side inner track rod end and hub-shock bolts has become a weekly service item. It is cheerfully pulling the lock washers out of shape and unthreading itself. I'm fairly convinced that the car cannot be saved at this point, but I'll throw it open to the forum.. What have I missed??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMARTLY Posted August 8, 2013 Report Share Posted August 8, 2013 Where are you located? A trip to WIM would be a very good start ............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2013 I'm based in Enfield, I've actually spoken with WIM about this (Tony I think) and he said he's happy to take a look. I just have to get a day off to get down there (not always easy in my job!). The geo does badly need doing again now as I've replaced 90% of the suspension and steering. Only thing is I don't really want to be paying £££ to set up a faulty car. There was nothing wrong with the geo the last two times I had it checked, and the car has none of the symptoms of faulty geo. It tracks straight if you take your hands off the wheel, it corners well and it brakes in a straight line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 One other thing I forgot to mention, most of the above parts list has now been changed a second time. I did a "global swap" with a car another MR2OC member was using as an engine donor. The theory was "that car drove fine so let's swap everything in one go and we must solve it". Sadly that didn't work, and a lot of the kit that's on there now is worse than the stuff that was on there before. Another thing I forgot to mention. The only thing that has had any effect on this is the tyres. Put a smaller set with higher sidewalls on the car and the shake reduces. Put the 17 inch alloys back and it's as bad as ever. Conclusion being that the thicker rubber provides more damping and helps hide the fault. That aside, the entire list in my first post plus the "global swap" in this post had no effect whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 9, 2013 Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 Can you drive through the vibration? When did the problem start and do you have wheel spacers fitted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 Hi Tony. The car had the vibration when I bought it. Once you hit 45-50mph the vibration starts and it doesn't go away no matter how fast you drive. I decided on a "kill or cure" approach a while back and took it to Silverstone for a track day. The shake didn't go away (or alter in any meaningful way) even when the needle was right off the top of the speedo (190kph / 120mph at a guess). When I bought the car it had 17inch alloys with no spigot rings and 5mm spacers on the rear. It was badly in need of 4-wheel alignment (which is why I thought the shake would be an easy fix). I removed the spacers and fitted spigot rings, had the wheels balanced and checked for true and the alignment done but this made no difference at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liner33 Posted August 9, 2013 Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 One of the reasons I use WIM is not only the ability to set the car up but to diagnose worn bushes , suspension and component wear. So don't think of it as wasted money to set up a car with faults but rather money spent on diagnosis Bearing in mind the money and time you have spent so far the hope of getting the right diagnosis on the Internet is minimal Also bear in mind just because you have swapped parts over doesnt mean you haven't swapped one knackered part with another Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyelcomb Posted August 9, 2013 Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 Interesting thread. Certainly seems as though you've been very thorough with changing things around. Have you had the rear of the car up on stands and driven it up through the gears that way? You might find that the vibration is nothing to do with the front at all. If a driveshaft CV is semi-seized or the diff is duff then it is possible for the vibraton to be transmitted through the car and manifest itself as though it is a steering issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 9, 2013 Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 Also i know you changed the front hubs but i would still put a straight edge across them. In addition i would check the bulkhead and suspension turrets for cracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parthiban Posted August 9, 2013 Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 This sounds fairly similar to that longstanding issue I had with my car doesn't it Tony! Although in my case thankfully you guys figured out it was the hubs and now it's perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 In fairness, the car is now sporting some very, very worn kit - but it all came off a car without the steering shake. I can't believe that after three sets of parts this is simply a wear issue. Nobody on the MR2 club is aware of another car having had these symptoms. I also struggle to believe that this set of kit and the previous set are both identically worn / damaged to the set the car came with, hence resulting in no change whatsoever to the problem. Another thing I forgot to mention. The shake is 100% through the steering. Even when the shake is at its most violent and the car is actually disassembling itself the CD plays fine, there's nothing through the seat. You can reach under the dashboard and hold the steering column right where it comes out of the rack - all the movement is twist in the column, there's absolutely no side-side play. If the source was at the rear of the car, surely something would show in the vehicle body? If you let go of the wheel and look away you can't tell there's anything wrong. I haven't put a straight edge over the hubs, but I have checked them with a runout gauge. The set of hubs that the car came with failed dismally, you could see that they were bent. The new set are within the spec for a brand new car, but installing them made no difference whatsoever. Is there anything the edge would find that a runout gauge wouldn't? I have checked the car over for cracks, especially around the suspension turrets. I've also added TRD bracing to try and eliminate flex in the chassis. Worth noting that I've put it through three MOTs now at three separate garages and it passed with no advisories last time. The only advisory it ever had was brake imbalance but that went away when I had the callipers rebuilt. The wheels now spin freely on all four corners. Agreed that the chances of an internet diagnosis are unlikely, but as I said in the first post I'm trying to figure out what I may have missed. Honestly I'm scared to drive it right now so running it up to WIM is something I'll only do once we're through here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 9, 2013 Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 This will sound odd but what does it handle like when it starts to vibrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 Absolutely fine. The shake makes no difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 9, 2013 Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 When the geometry was done do you know what the end castor positions were? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 I don't I'm afraid. I might still have the sheet at home. I'll take a look tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 This is the "before sheet from 2011 a few months after I bought the car. This is the "after" sheet. Looks like I mis-remembered the geo being ok... In my defence I doubt that those readings would have the car falling apart? As noted above, the dramatic improvement in geo made no difference at all to the shake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 For some reason I've lost the ability to edit the post above. This is the "before" geo. I double-copied the "after" above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 Everyone on the MR2 club has gone a little mental since I posted that print. They seem to think that it may be a problem... [/understatement] Guess this is why it pays to go to companies like WIM... Don't suppose you're having any emergency sessions tomorrow Tony? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 No, sorry, i'm fully booked and have a reserve list...... I think you realize there is some castor issues but as bad as they are i'm not convinced this is the real issue, but saying that the castor disparity needs to be sorted before we can move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 Agreed Tony, can't imagine how a couple of degrees makes the car unbolt itself. Found a local place who will have a go today so I'll report back in a few hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 Well it's not the caster... I didn't get them to sort it. Seems to be scrap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 I would like to see this car! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 For why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 10, 2013 Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 I want to find the reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Al_ Posted August 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2013 I'm happy to run it up to you today and leave it with you? I just can't keep throwing money into it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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