Rich Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 Right I want to upgrade some more suspension parts but would like some opinions as to whether I should or not. I don't use the car on track but like my country lanes. The car has done 176k miles but I will be keeping her for a while yet and when I do replace her may get a V6 mondeo so the parts can be reused. He's the plan. Fit a front strut brace and a rear one which would come from America so depends on the cost. Buy a 21mm rear ARB to replace my 18mm one, which will come from America. Then change the rear drop links to either rose joints or poly bush the originals. These will be the earlier bolt on type compared to the push type I have. I may also need to swap the rear box arms to the earlier ones so the links will fit. I predict all that to cost around £350. So any opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 What about the rear ARB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 I've mentioned the rear ARB. I can either get a 21mm one or stick with the 18mm but get the older style so I can fit uprated rear drop links. Front ARB is already 20mm but there is no uprated ones made for this and TBH it would mean lowering the subframe to fit which I won't be doing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 I did mean the front (typo).... any numbers on the different torsional rates... 18 to 21 seems insignificant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 I did mean the front (typo).... any numbers on the different torsional rates... 18 to 21 seems insignificant. Ah right...isn't 20mm for the front thick enough though? The rear one is this at the top - Click Me There's only one person I know of on MEG who fitted it and he said it made a big difference. This was fitted to a 4x4 mondeo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 My concern is the torsional balance front and rear, if the upgrade is unison front and rear then great, if not then you can evolve an "under/ over" steer issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 My concern is the torsional balance front and rear, if the upgrade is unison front and rear then great, if not then you can evolve an "under/ over" steer issue. Didn't know that, so if I go from 18mm to 21mm on the rear the front should be uprated to say 23mm? Would I be better off getting the 18mm ARB from a MK1 and fitting the poly bushes to the drop links. These are not available on the later drop links, hence the reason to change the bar but thought uprating at the same time would be a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 My concern is the torsional balance front and rear, if the upgrade is unison front and rear then great, if not then you can evolve an "under/ over" steer issue. Didn't know that, so if I go from 18mm to 21mm on the rear the front should be uprated to say 23mm? Would I be better off getting the 18mm ARB from a MK1 and fitting the poly bushes to the drop links. These are not available on the later drop links, hence the reason to change the bar but thought uprating at the same time would be a good idea. You need to know the numbers.... uprating the ARB's front and rear is fine assuming the torsional loads are the same disparity as OEM, if not then you have evolved a particular handling trait, like over/ under steer. Example... If the owner of a FWD wants to generate over steer then an upgrade to the front ARB is the best first move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 If I email them and ask about torsional rates will they know what I'm asking for or is there a better way of putting it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 If I email them and ask about torsional rates will they know what I'm asking for or is there a better way of putting it? Nope it's a global language other than the yanks version of "sway bar". Try this calculator> http://users.erols.com/dmapes/SWBRCLC.HTM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 If I email them and ask about torsional rates will they know what I'm asking for or is there a better way of putting it? Nope it's a global language other than the yanks version of "sway bar". Try this calculator> http://users.erols.com/dmapes/SWBRCLC.HTM Cheers for the link I will email them. If it is ok do you think it's worth doing to mine? Would a 4x4 be firmer at the rear compared to a 2WD hence why it made a difference to that car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 If I email them and ask about torsional rates will they know what I'm asking for or is there a better way of putting it? Nope it's a global language other than the yanks version of "sway bar". Try this calculator> http://users.erols.com/dmapes/SWBRCLC.HTM Cheers for the link I will email them. If it is ok do you think it's worth doing to mine? Would a 4x4 be firmer at the rear compared to a 2WD hence why it made a difference to that car? I'm scared to offer an opinion since the 4x4 chassis/ suspension is so different to the 2wd, logic suggests the upgrade would work but i'm not so sure it will work in all circumstances. The suspensions articulation during transition is partnered by the ARB's ability to control the roll centres, get this wrong then it's bye, bye rear end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 If I email them and ask about torsional rates will they know what I'm asking for or is there a better way of putting it? Nope it's a global language other than the yanks version of "sway bar". Try this calculator> http://users.erols.com/dmapes/SWBRCLC.HTM Cheers for the link I will email them. If it is ok do you think it's worth doing to mine? Would a 4x4 be firmer at the rear compared to a 2WD hence why it made a difference to that car? I'm scared to offer an opinion since the 4x4 chassis/ suspension is so different to the 2wd, logic suggests the upgrade would work but i'm not so sure it will work in all circumstances. The suspensions articulation during transition is partnered by the ARB's ability to control the roll centres, get this wrong then it's bye, bye rear end. Does the amount the car is lowered by and wheel size play apart in how the ARB behaves? I think I will just get a MK1 ARB so I can use the MK1 drop links, which I will poly bush or possibly get rose jointed ones. Do you think this would make some kind of improvement? Hopefully I will be able to get the rear strut brace aswell. The 21mm ARB is alot of money for an extra 3mm to find it makes the car worse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammy Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 If you go mk1 mate im almost positive you will need the box arms...better find 1 and mesure the lenth fro the hole for link from end of box arm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 ER... What i am saying is the miss-mash of parts that fit "this and that" is impossible for me to guide you since there's loads of information missing. By now i'm sure you are aware the chassis is tuned and each modification will have a bearing on this tuning for the better or worse. In the absence of more data i would not recommend you fit the 4x4 arb. Once the car is lowered there is a change in the coil-rate and in your case the rebound since your dampers are not adjustable, the combination of unregulated rebound and unknown roll-centres hits my scared nerve. It's for this reason i keep telling people to get adjustable drop-links so we can at least add some pre-load to the arb and gain some type of tuning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 ER... What i am saying is the miss-mash of parts that fit "this and that" is impossible for me to guide you since there's loads of information missing. By now i'm sure you are aware the chassis is tuned and each modification will have a bearing on this tuning for the better or worse. In the absence of more data i would not recommend you fit the 4x4 arb. Once the car is lowered there is a change in the coil-rate and in your case the rebound since your dampers are not adjustable, the combination of unregulated rebound and unknown roll-centres hits my scared nerve. It's for this reason i keep telling people to get adjustable drop-links so we can at least add some pre-load to the arb and gain some type of tuning. Yeah I know, it was not very realistic of me to ask you that as there are too many variables. To clarify though the 21mm ARB is not specifically made for the 4x4, it is the only car I know on MEG that has it fitted. However, it is made to uprate all contour and mondeos which have the 18mm ARB as standard. I will email them and ask for more information on it. The dampers on mine are also standard, would I be better off getting some shortened ones instead? The only adjustable ones I know of are Koni, which I don't want to get as there have been issues with these and the camber kit. Eibach do state the springs I have are made for the original dampers though. As for rear drop links, I have this type, which Ford changed for the '99 to '00 reg cars. I'm not sure why they did this as these tend to snap easily. If I keep the rear ARB as standard (18mm), but change it to the MK1 type I can fit these drop links instead and poly bush them. Which I think is probably the better route to take now? I don't think there are any adjustable drop links available for the mondeo (front or rear) unless you know of some? To start with I shall get a front strut brace first and then a rear if the group buy on MEG goes ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigwam Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Taken from the Bat website on the 21mm rear sway bar We recommend increasing the diameter of the rear bar only for better "balance". For this we offer a 19mm bar upgrade for standard cars (normally equipped with 16mm), and a 21mm for SE/SVT cars (normally equipped with 18mm). We do not recommend increasing the front bar diameter on front wheel drive cars such as the Contour. Installing a larger front bar would increase understeer which would not be desirable. The 19mm bars are European Ford imports, 21mm bars are a BAT produced item. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammy Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Spax also do adjustables for mondeo rich.allthough i had issues at first im happy with them and glas i didnt go the extra 130 quid for konis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Taken from the Bat website on the 21mm rear sway bar We recommend increasing the diameter of the rear bar only for better "balance". For this we offer a 19mm bar upgrade for standard cars (normally equipped with 16mm), and a 21mm for SE/SVT cars (normally equipped with 18mm). We do not recommend increasing the front bar diameter on front wheel drive cars such as the Contour. Installing a larger front bar would increase understeer which would not be desirable. The 19mm bars are European Ford imports, 21mm bars are a BAT produced item. Cheers, I hadn't looked on the bat website...so what's your opinion of that Tony, where they suggest not increasing the front ARB? Also reading about the camber kit, they state you can adjust camber or castor separately (within a certain range) or a combination of both. I'm going to investigate more on that as I thought it was camber only. Although I know you will get some adjustment from the castor angle by changing the camber. Spax also do adjustables for mondeo rich.allthough i had issues at first im happy with them and glas i didnt go the extra 130 quid for konis Didn't know that cheers Can you buy shocks on their own though as I've always seen either just springs or complete sets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigwam Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 If you search on Google, you can buy as a set of 4 or single shocks. People like euro performance, larkspeed and proven products will be able to sort you out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammy Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 ER... What i am saying is the miss-mash of parts that fit "this and that" is impossible for me to guide you since there's loads of information missing. By now i'm sure you are aware the chassis is tuned and each modification will have a bearing on this tuning for the better or worse. In the absence of more data i would not recommend you fit the 4x4 arb. Once the car is lowered there is a change in the coil-rate and in your case the rebound since your dampers are not adjustable, the combination of unregulated rebound and unknown roll-centres hits my scared nerve. It's for this reason i keep telling people to get adjustable drop-links so we can at least add some pre-load to the arb and gain some type of tuning. Yeah I know, it was not very realistic of me to ask you that as there are too many variables. To clarify though the 21mm ARB is not specifically made for the 4x4, it is the only car I know on MEG that has it fitted. However, it is made to uprate all contour and mondeos which have the 18mm ARB as standard. I will email them and ask for more information on it. The dampers on mine are also standard, would I be better off getting some shortened ones instead? The only adjustable ones I know of are Koni, which I don't want to get as there have been issues with these and the camber kit. Eibach do state the springs I have are made for the original dampers though. As for rear drop links, I have this type, which Ford changed for the '99 to '00 reg cars. I'm not sure why they did this as these tend to snap easily. If I keep the rear ARB as standard (18mm), but change it to the MK1 type I can fit these drop links instead and poly bush them. Which I think is probably the better route to take now? I don't think there are any adjustable drop links available for the mondeo (front or rear) unless you know of some? To start with I shall get a front strut brace first and then a rear if the group buy on MEG goes ahead. rich that pic of link at bottom is the late mk1 early mk2 bolt on type Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 @ER Unless a car has a historic handling trait (error) then the rule of thumb is to modify the arb's uniformly front and rear, this maintains the roll centres without inflicting over/ under-steer and all the other undesired issues. If independent arb's have been researched and proved then great go for it. In your quest for chassis adjusters it's "castor" all the way for your car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 @ERUnless a car has a historic handling trait (error) then the rule of thumb is to modify the arb's uniformly front and rear, this maintains the roll centres without inflicting over/ under-steer and all the other undesired issues. If independent arb's have been researched and proved then great go for it. In your quest for chassis adjusters it's "castor" all the way for your car I got a reply from CTA motorsports who said they don't know the exact torsional specs but it's alot stronger than the OEM one...so that helps me alot! Emailing Bat Inc now and see what they have to say...I will also ask about adjusting the castor separately to the camber as this does need addressing if it's possible without spending £££. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 How can they "not know" the torsional resistant rates?.... very odd!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 How can they "not know" the torsional resistant rates?.... very odd!! Yeah it's strange and Bat Inc don't have an email address so I can't ask them, unless I phone America! I've also read that the Contour Sedan was fitted with a 20mm front ARB but the later SVT model was fitted with a 19mm front ARB, so people over there have fitted the 21mm rear ARB with both of these and don't seem to have problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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