BMW KDS Geometry Alignment.....,

[Palmo]

Tony, I can't thank you enough for the time and effort you (and your friend) have gone to on this.

 

I have read everything in detail and it certainly makes a lot of sense - I'm sure you're onto something here!

 

The comments about all staggered set-up's doing this to some degree I can't comment upon, but what may make the 5 series even worse is it's construction. As 'your Friend' has pointed out the 5 series is a 'slab sided cruiser', but with a very light front end due to an all aluminium construction from the 'A' Pillar's forward (light in proportion to it's size at least). So this will presumably compound the issue with the least stability also being at the front!

 

This is an annoying situation, as I think the car looks and drives fantastic with these wheels fitted 90% of the time. I recently had a trip to Germany and took the car up to just short of 150 mph on one of the autobahns (on a calm day I might add) and it was as steady as a rock! I guess I'm going to have to come to terms with it if it is indeed this phenomenon - at least my mind is beginning to be put at rest in the sense there is nothing actually wrong with my car in terms of alignment etc. etc.

 

I have been considering fitting alternative tyres for a while. What would you suggest? I would want a tyre to remain relatively quiet & comfortable, but remain responsive and be as good wearing as possible (not much of an ask I know). How would you rate the new Goodyear EAGLE F1 Asymmetric or Vredestein ULTRAC SESSANTA - I've heard good reports about both - although concerned about potential wear rates with both. I've had a few sets of Bridgestones in the past and found them to very hard (I understand that is part of what may be needed in this case), noisy and wooden (if that makes sense) - that was on a Subaru Impreza.

 

CamInHead

I can indeed confirm that the wheels are staggered: Rims are - Front 8.5 J x 19 (fitted with 245/35/19), Rear 9.5 J x 19 (fitted with 275/30/19).

[Tony]

I intentionally included my friends analogy of the cars shape so that you can understand the verbal interpretation of the problem, this analogy is in no way detrimental to the car, more an expression of the problem born from it's design.

 

Another point to note is that we look outside of the box however unpalatable to find a solution, we dissect the complaint and undress forum chatter in the hope collectively a resolve is found.

 

As said the dynamic index is a done deal, as is the stagger, so pneumatic slip control seems the best viable exit here.... and i'm sorry to say my safe zone is the Bridgestone's.

[Palmo]

I intentionally included my friends analogy of the cars shape so that you can understand the verbal interpretation of the problem, this analogy is in no way detrimental to the car, more an expression of the problem born from it's design.

 

Another point to note is that we look outside of the box however unpalatable to find a solution, we dissect the complaint and undress forum chatter in the hope collectively a resolve is found.

 

As said the dynamic index is a done deal, as is the stagger, so pneumatic slip control seems the best viable exit here.... and i'm sorry to say my safe zone is the Bridgestone's.

 

Tony - using your friend's analogy is fine - you've explained things between you both very well. At least now I feel like I have got a good understanding of what is being said and why my car is doing this!

 

From what you've both said, it seems like the 'best solution' would be to change the wheel / tyre combination for a non-staggered set-up. However, I don't currently want to spend this amount of money out and to be honest I love the look of the wheels, their OEM quality & the way the car drives the 'other' 90% of the time. Therefore, as you've put it "pneumatic slip control seems the best viable exit here.... ".

 

So, which Bridgestone Tyre in particular do you recommend?

[CIH]

I imagine you'd be looking at a Potenza, given the dimensions.

 

edit: A guy who neighbours our place has a v8 M5 with staggered wheels. I wonder if his car behaves in a similar way ?

[Palmo]

I imagine you'd be looking at a Potenza, given the dimensions.

 

edit: A guy who neighbours our place has a v8 M5 with staggered wheels. I wonder if his car behaves in a similar way ?

 

If it's a v8 M5, then it's the older e39 5 series model which is obviously a different body-shape to the current e60 5 series (which mine is). Therefore I would expect aerodynamics to play a different part - although it may also be affected by this issue. Can you ask him the question?

 

Thanks!

[Tony]

I intentionally included my friends analogy of the cars shape so that you can understand the verbal interpretation of the problem, this analogy is in no way detrimental to the car, more an expression of the problem born from it's design.

 

Another point to note is that we look outside of the box however unpalatable to find a solution, we dissect the complaint and undress forum chatter in the hope collectively a resolve is found.

 

As said the dynamic index is a done deal, as is the stagger, so pneumatic slip control seems the best viable exit here.... and i'm sorry to say my safe zone is the Bridgestone's.

 

Tony - using your friend's analogy is fine - you've explained things between you both very well. At least now I feel like I have got a good understanding of what is being said and why my car is doing this!

 

From what you've both said, it seems like the 'best solution' would be to change the wheel / tyre combination for a non-staggered set-up. However, I don't currently want to spend this amount of money out and to be honest I love the look of the wheels, their OEM quality & the way the car drives the 'other' 90% of the time. Therefore, as you've put it "pneumatic slip control seems the best viable exit here.... ".

 

So, which Bridgestone Tyre in particular do you recommend?

 

There will be a specific compound code for the BMW, it may read like RE040 (cz) or (ay), i don't have the list here but i'm sure the boys in the BMW forum would know.

[CIH]

I imagine you'd be looking at a Potenza, given the dimensions.

 

edit: A guy who neighbours our place has a v8 M5 with staggered wheels. I wonder if his car behaves in a similar way ?

 

If it's a v8 M5, then it's the older e39 5 series model which is obviously a different body-shape to the current e60 5 series (which mine is). Therefore I would expect aerodynamics to play a different part - although it may also be affected by this issue. Can you ask him the question?

 

Thanks!

 

I finally got round to asking Pele about his V8 M5 today. He hasn't experienced anything as you describe with his earlier version. Wasn't really expecting him to have done so but it would have been interesting if he had.

He's currently riding on Contis, incidentally.

[jasonprice07]

Hi

Been reading this thread with interest as I recently purchased a 530D 2005MY which needs some new tyres. The car is a M-Sport model on 18inch wheels, 235/40 F&R. I have never felt the car is any worse when its windy but it does not like un-even surfaces which I've put down to the run-flats fitted. I've been looking at bigger wheels and really like these 19" 172m

but this thread has got me thinking.

As a suggestion why don't you try a set of the 18" wheels which have the same tyre widths? This would show if its the staggered widths.

If you want to swap alloys for a week or more I'd be more than happy to assist cheeky I know but it would give you a definate answer and I could judge if Its worth upgraging to 19's.

Shame its not today as it's blowing a gale outside.

 

Jason

[Tony]

That's a very nice offer Jason, let's hope the offer is taken, if only to prove a theory.

[jasonprice07]

Thanks Tony

 

Only came across this site today, nice to find something different from the normal (BHP forums)

Impressed with your company wedsite as well, I've always used Elite in Essex but may travel the extra distance when I get my wheels / tyres sorted.

 

Jason

[Rich]

I've always used Elite in Essex but may travel the extra distance when I get my wheels / tyres sorted.

 

Jason

 

Once you've done it the WIM way you will never go back!

[Tony]

Thanks Tony

 

Only came across this site today, nice to find something different from the normal (BHP forums)

Impressed with your company wedsite as well, I've always used Elite in Essex but may travel the extra distance when I get my wheels / tyres sorted.

 

Jason

 

Elite where very good some time back, but something's gone very wrong there of late.... Understand i'm not trying to capture the entire UK calibration market, in fact i depend on satellite companies to calibrate owners cars out of my immediate reach, but unfortunately Elite is no longer one of those companies.

[dfereday@hotmail.com]

Gents,

 

I've just read all your comments with avvid interest. I too have a 530d M Sport Auto LCI on the 135 MSport (18" RFT) RIMS. Whislt the techy answer may have something to do with it I think my final conclusion out of the problems that I have had is that the car is just really sensitive to geometry.

 

I battled with BMW from purchase in July 07 to Dec 08 trying to get my car sorted ( overall slight pull right, and more nervousness than my heart could deal with above 65mph. If I took my eyes off the road the car would wander off the direction set). The final conclusion was that after 3 KDS adjustments, and a independant Hunter Hawkeye assessment, the E60 is very very sensitive to settings and tyres.

 

Here's the total of my learned experience.

 

Setting the car up takes a sensitive hand, and absolutly no bull from technicians that say that when a setting is +/- 0.02 out on toe it wont matter. Believe me with these cars .. it does and I've experienced it first hand. Someone is going to also shout me down and say that these differences are so small that you cannot feel them. I'm going to tell you that in my experience with Porsche, and BMW ....you can. Some poeple are very spacially aware, and those poeple can easily feel the differences.

 

So to the problem described.....

 

I look at your original settings and see a car that would appear to have a thrust angle to the right of the car , overall front toe bias just to the left, and overall rear toe bias to the right .... this would appear to be a mixed bag that would be roughly similar to the settings prevalent on my car in the beginning.

 

The adjusted car would appear to still have a thrust angle to the right, albeit 0.01 less, overall front toe bias significantly left, and overall rear toe bias to the right. It's an improvement.... but not going to cure the twitchiness.... btw .. I think what happens in the wind just makes something you can't feel when not windy noticeable.

 

My advice. Your car is doing subtle things to try and twist about it's central axis. The thrust angle will make the rear end skew out to the right. The front toe will make the front end skew to the left, and the rear toe will also try and push the rear out to the right.

 

First things first. Have the car measured on a Hunter Hawkeye independently to "measure" the current settings. Do not let them use the ride height measurement tools on the hunter if they have them. Have the car weighted up appropriately and have a full tank of fuel.

Take your results and compare. They will be different. Look at the overall picture and relative trend. If the picture overall looks the same, then go back to your dealer with the results, and get them to agree to re-KDS it. If they won't recheck get them to refer it to the area technical manger.

 

Then dig your heels in and ask your dealership to re KDS and a) for you to be present, for the workshop manager to be present, and c ) have each part explained to you by the technician. Establish when both machines were last calibrated (dealer + independant) , and what software levels each is using.

 

Every time the technician explains why he's making an assumption about not having to do something, get him to explain why. Make sure that when they set the car up, they make all the adjustments they can, and that the tech makes sure the settings are as per the target , not near, or close but bang on. The techs are going to whine and say it's impossible. I've seen a tech do it and do it right. He got the settings bang on, and when they went off having adjusted another wheel, he bounced the car let it resettle and went back and readjusted, again and again and again. It cured my problems on my final KDS. They didn't like it.. but I stayed until I was hapy with the final numbers. toe needs to be more not less than the target if anything.

 

(btw The more front toe you add, the more stable the steering will feel, and the greater the centre feel. The more rear toe, the more stable in a straight line, but on cornering you get a sharper bite / turn in from the rear. makes it feel more nimble.

 

So for example if they use the ride height sensors, ask why many dealers have stopped using them, and would they be better off just weighting the car appropriately? My dealership stopped using it in favour of just weighting the car with a full tank of petrol + the advisory weights for occupants. The ride heigth sensors just add more complexity by adjusting the angles for given heights of the wheels from the chassis. I think in practice, this just buggers everything up. (IMHO).

 

So get the thrust angles right on the rear, along with the toe nice and even on the rear, and then get the front sorted. even toe = no pulling bias or twisting.

Then get your tyres sorted asap because it won't feel right until you get the wear even. CHANGE the LOT !... It's a lot cheaper than RIMS !!!!

 

In comment of your tyre pressures - they have been off. Change the garage where you inflate for somewhere more reliable. Inflate when it gets cold outside. You need to watch this. Your fronts are underinflated indicated by the greater tread in the centre. The uneven wear pattern in the fronts is most likely caused entirely by this. The new geometry settings will only make this feel worse.

 

Your rears have also been slightly off pressure- probably very slightly overinflated for your driving/loading. The left rear inner edge wear will be caused by the drag of the overall right hand toe. Otherwise. The new settings will reduce the wear. BUT the car is going to feel like it's all over the place with uneven wear.

 

You say you've been running stock pressures but my tyre panel suggests for the 19" that you should have 2.3 Front and 2.6 rear. The front would be consistent with my advice, however I think you need to take 0.1 out of the rear given the numbers.. ( if you do fast/heavy/long distance take the pressure out. If you do light/slow/short journeys put it in ).

 

My car when set up by the tech to the target settings, and + a little more front toe, completely rid the twitchyness. It's now got to be really windy ! and thats only to be expected.

 

The thing you do have to realise is that a combination of geometry and tyre wear are now placing funny forces all over the place. This chassis is sensitive to it, and it wont feel right until the geometry is square (toes and cambers are ON SPEC) ... My replacement cars have been on both 172's and 135M's . The 172's felt better overall than 135 RFT's IMHO.... and I'm not a great fan of ultra low profiles

 

good luck !

[Tony]

What a stunning and determined report, thank you dfereday@hotmail.

 

Your experiences show how a resourceful owner would probably know more about the chassis and the calibration than the operator.... I trust you have placed this superb post on one of the BMW forums?

[CIH]

I don't know about KDS but the Hunter DSP600 I use requires weights be added/removed to reach a speific target ride height, so ride-height shouldn't be totally ruled out. That's a Camber issue, though less camber means Toe will be more dominant in the overall charicter of the car.

 

Otherwise, what Tony said.

[Palmo]

Gents,

 

I've just read all your comments with avvid interest. I too have a 530d M Sport Auto LCI on the 135 MSport (18" RFT) RIMS. Whislt the techy answer may have something to do with it I think my final conclusion out of the problems that I have had is that the car is just really sensitive to geometry.

 

I battled with BMW from purchase in July 07 to Dec 08 trying to get my car sorted ( overall slight pull right, and more nervousness than my heart could deal with above 65mph. If I took my eyes off the road the car would wander off the direction set). The final conclusion was that after 3 KDS adjustments, and a independant Hunter Hawkeye assessment, the E60 is very very sensitive to settings and tyres.

 

Here's the total of my learned experience.

 

Setting the car up takes a sensitive hand, and absolutly no bull from technicians that say that when a setting is +/- 0.02 out on toe it wont matter. Believe me with these cars .. it does and I've experienced it first hand. Someone is going to also shout me down and say that these differences are so small that you cannot feel them. I'm going to tell you that in my experience with Porsche, and BMW ....you can. Some poeple are very spacially aware, and those poeple can easily feel the differences.

 

So to the problem described.....

 

I look at your original settings and see a car that would appear to have a thrust angle to the right of the car , overall front toe bias just to the left, and overall rear toe bias to the right .... this would appear to be a mixed bag that would be roughly similar to the settings prevalent on my car in the beginning.

 

The adjusted car would appear to still have a thrust angle to the right, albeit 0.01 less, overall front toe bias significantly left, and overall rear toe bias to the right. It's an improvement.... but not going to cure the twitchiness.... btw .. I think what happens in the wind just makes something you can't feel when not windy noticeable.

 

My advice. Your car is doing subtle things to try and twist about it's central axis. The thrust angle will make the rear end skew out to the right. The front toe will make the front end skew to the left, and the rear toe will also try and push the rear out to the right.

 

First things first. Have the car measured on a Hunter Hawkeye independently to "measure" the current settings. Do not let them use the ride height measurement tools on the hunter if they have them. Have the car weighted up appropriately and have a full tank of fuel.

Take your results and compare. They will be different. Look at the overall picture and relative trend. If the picture overall looks the same, then go back to your dealer with the results, and get them to agree to re-KDS it. If they won't recheck get them to refer it to the area technical manger.

 

Then dig your heels in and ask your dealership to re KDS and a) for you to be present, for the workshop manager to be present, and c ) have each part explained to you by the technician. Establish when both machines were last calibrated (dealer + independant) , and what software levels each is using.

 

Every time the technician explains why he's making an assumption about not having to do something, get him to explain why. Make sure that when they set the car up, they make all the adjustments they can, and that the tech makes sure the settings are as per the target , not near, or close but bang on. The techs are going to whine and say it's impossible. I've seen a tech do it and do it right. He got the settings bang on, and when they went off having adjusted another wheel, he bounced the car let it resettle and went back and readjusted, again and again and again. It cured my problems on my final KDS. They didn't like it.. but I stayed until I was hapy with the final numbers. toe needs to be more not less than the target if anything.

 

(btw The more front toe you add, the more stable the steering will feel, and the greater the centre feel. The more rear toe, the more stable in a straight line, but on cornering you get a sharper bite / turn in from the rear. makes it feel more nimble.

 

So for example if they use the ride height sensors, ask why many dealers have stopped using them, and would they be better off just weighting the car appropriately? My dealership stopped using it in favour of just weighting the car with a full tank of petrol + the advisory weights for occupants. The ride heigth sensors just add more complexity by adjusting the angles for given heights of the wheels from the chassis. I think in practice, this just buggers everything up. (IMHO).

 

So get the thrust angles right on the rear, along with the toe nice and even on the rear, and then get the front sorted. even toe = no pulling bias or twisting.

Then get your tyres sorted asap because it won't feel right until you get the wear even. CHANGE the LOT !... It's a lot cheaper than RIMS !!!!

 

In comment of your tyre pressures - they have been off. Change the garage where you inflate for somewhere more reliable. Inflate when it gets cold outside. You need to watch this. Your fronts are underinflated indicated by the greater tread in the centre. The uneven wear pattern in the fronts is most likely caused entirely by this. The new geometry settings will only make this feel worse.

 

Your rears have also been slightly off pressure- probably very slightly overinflated for your driving/loading. The left rear inner edge wear will be caused by the drag of the overall right hand toe. Otherwise. The new settings will reduce the wear. BUT the car is going to feel like it's all over the place with uneven wear.

 

You say you've been running stock pressures but my tyre panel suggests for the 19" that you should have 2.3 Front and 2.6 rear. The front would be consistent with my advice, however I think you need to take 0.1 out of the rear given the numbers.. ( if you do fast/heavy/long distance take the pressure out. If you do light/slow/short journeys put it in ).

 

My car when set up by the tech to the target settings, and + a little more front toe, completely rid the twitchyness. It's now got to be really windy ! and thats only to be expected.

 

The thing you do have to realise is that a combination of geometry and tyre wear are now placing funny forces all over the place. This chassis is sensitive to it, and it wont feel right until the geometry is square (toes and cambers are ON SPEC) ... My replacement cars have been on both 172's and 135M's . The 172's felt better overall than 135 RFT's IMHO.... and I'm not a great fan of ultra low profiles

 

good luck !

 

I've only just read this! WOW! As already said a stunning and detailed review! Thanks very much for taking the time & effort to post all this info!

 

I have read your advice and will follow a number of points you have raised!

 

Firstly I have just had 4 new tyres fitted (original OEM Continentals). However, I am now experiencing Balancing Problems (see thread HERE). I have arranged to go down and see Tony (WIM) on Wednesday. During this visit I hope to have the wheels successfully re-balanced and the geometry checked / adjusted depending on what is found - I'm pretty sure Tony will be able to improve on the current set-up from what I've read on here about his accuracy and quality of workmanship. To be honest, I have used 3 different BMW dealers since getting this car back in April 07 and I don't trust any of them!

 

The final point is about tyre inflation pressures. My intention has always been to put 2.1 bar in the front, & 2.5 bar in the rear (as advised on the door pillar). However, due to inaccurate gauges, I feel I have never been able to guarantee that I have indeed been achieving these pressures! Every garage airline shows different (cold) readings!

 

I have purchased a Michelin Pressure gauge - see HERE. How accurate are these? I aim to try 2.3 bar in the front, and as I mainly do fast/heavy/long distances I will continue with 2.5 rear, but using the Michelin gauge.

[Tony]

Like most settings, the pressures offered by BMW are only suggestions so +- 2 or 3 psi from stock is not unreasonable.

[duckson]

What was the outcome of this? Was it sorted?

[Tony]

What was the outcome of this? Was it sorted?

 

No not entirely..... There are a combination of factors like the suspension/ bushing frequency, the Geometry calibration and the tyre make, at best the problem can be reduced.