Palmo Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Tony, you may recall me from a previous post several months ago regarding "Instability in Cross Winds" - see BMW KDS Geometry Alignment...... You were very helpful in helping diagnose problems relating to my 2007 BMW 5 Series M-Sport and so were several posters. Regarding that issue, I haven't noticed any real changes, although I must say that the car hasn't suffered from the problem recently as the weather conditions haven't been right to cause the issue. Anyway, I now have another problem relating to Wheel Balancing that I am really hoping you can help resolve for me, even if I have to travel down to you (a longish journey from Manchester). Please bare with me if this post is longish, as I want to give you all the background first. BACKGROUND About a month ago, I had a set of 4 new tyres fitted (you may recall I have a staggered set-up which possibly contributes to the cause of the Cross Wind Instability). I have 245/35 R 19's on the Front, and 275/30 R 19's on the Rear (a very popular size set-up on the 5 series M-Sport). I decided to stick with the OEM Continental Conti Sport Contact 2's as these are the only tyres approved for my car by BMW. Apart from the Cross Wind Issue, I have always found these to be a very good tyre, albeit expensive! On various cars in the past, I have always found Wheel Balancing to be very 'hit & mis' and never found that 'mainstream fast fit' places can do an accurate job - there always seems to be some vibration or shimmy. However, I have always found that having wheels balanced on a Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Balancer have 'always' cured such problems in the past. Please note, that the tyres that were taken off my car (the same OEM tyres that I replaced them with) were very badly worn, one front in particular was very 'slick'. Even in this state, there was no vibration or shimmy. The car has covered 38k miles - front tyres replaced were originals, but the backs were the 2nd set. The front wheels were replaced by BMW at about 20k miles due to a paint finish issue, but my front tyres were re-mounted on the replacements. Upon driving, there was a vibration which BMW themselves couldn't cure (doesn't instill a lot of confidence does it). Anyway, a trip to a Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Balancer immediately cured the problem and I had a further 18k miles of vibration free motoring prior to just having the tyres changed. I therefore decided to have the tyres fitted and balanced by a company that has a Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Balancer, even though this meant I had a reasonable journey to make (this is a different company that I had used before). THE PROBLEM Upon driving the car afterwards it 'seemed ok' on my return journey, but the traffic was bad and I couldn't really get above or maintain speeds above 60mph. Anyway, several days later I noticed that there was indeed a vibration / shimmy from 55mph - 75mph, worse on some surfaces than others - but none the less there! A week later whilst on a business trip I found myself in the vicinity of another Hunter GSP9700 Road Force equipped garage (the one I had used several times in the past with great success). They 're-balanced the wheels'. Again, upon driving the car afterwards it 'seemed ok' on my return journey, but again the traffic was bad and I couldn't really maintain speeds above 60mph. Anyway, several days later I again noticed that there was 'still' indeed a vibration / shimmy from 55mph - 75mph. Finally last week, I was on a visit to my 'in-laws' 'up North' and decided to have a 3rd attempt at having them balanced with yet another Hunter GSP9700 Road Force equipped garage. This time on driving the car, it initially 'seemed' cured. However a few days later (as in each case) I removed each wheel from the car to remove the old balancing weight residue / sticky. Upon placing the wheels back on the car the vibration / shimmy has returned - I have checked and double checked the hubs are clean, the wheels are mounted correctly and that tyre pressures are spot on. This vibration / shimmy is minor in the great scheme of things but becomes very annoying and it is taking away driving pleasure - particularly on long motorway cruises or during spirited driving on long committed bends where a constant shimmy is transmitted to the steering wheel! Each time the wheels were balanced, different weights were placed on the rims, each time suggesting the previous balance was incorrect. The first 2 passed the tyre / wheel force machining test, whilst on the 3rd occasion one front and one rear failed - requiring these 2 tyres to be spun on the rims by 180 degrees before being re-checked and passed, then re-balanced! THE SOLUTION Do you think you could cure this balancing related problem? I understand you use a stud plate to balance, something I don't believe any of the other companies have used, despite having the Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Balancer. One balanced using the wheel centre (same as any old fast fit centre), one used some kind of made up stud type device from the front - but did not use the wheel nuts - so I presume this is different to your set-up? If you are confident, that based upon the information I have provided that you can cure my vibration, then I will make the effort and have the long trip down to you to balance my 4 wheels. As my last front tyres covered 38k miles, I think it would be worthwhile as they will be on the car for a while now. Do I need to book a timeslot (I am thinking sometime mid next week may be) and how much would you charge me to balance all 4? Out of interest what kind of balancer doe you have? In addition, relating to my original post about "Instability in Cross Winds", I'm wondering if you could check my wheel alignment while I'm there. How much do you charge to check this, and then how much to adjust if required? If you'd prefer to PM me with this info, that's fine! Many Thanks, I look forward to your response and potentially meeting you next week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Thanks for the detailed post.... As i said on the phone today my only concern is the vibration seems to appear when you move the steering from a steady-state position or transitional yaw. Having seen the horrors born from other companies i think it's wise i reserve judgment until i have looked at the car myself..... I could drone on for hours looking outside of the box only to find on the day it was due to poor workmanship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmo Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Thanks for the detailed post.... As i said on the phone today my only concern is the vibration seems to appear when you move the steering from a steady-state position or transitional yaw. Having seen the horrors born from other companies i think it's wise i reserve judgment until i have looked at the car myself..... I could drone on for hours looking outside of the box only to find on the day it was due to poor workmanship. OK - see you on Wednesday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmo Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Hi Tony, Thanks for your time today. As I said when I phoned you, unfortunately I still have the vibration. As I drove further North it became apparent that there isn't much change to how it felt before. As you said, I guess this leads on to a possible tyre(s) problem. I have emailed Continental UK Customer Services explaining in detail my problems and requesting that the tyres are inspected. I'll see how it goes. Do you have any direct contacts in Continental that you could maybe point me towards (in a PM) that could may be help? At least I have piece of mind that my alignment is fine! Many Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Hi Tony, Thanks for your time today. As I said when I phoned you, unfortunately I still have the vibration. As I drove further North it became apparent that there isn't much change to how it felt before. As you said, I guess this leads on to a possible tyre(s) problem. I have emailed Continental UK Customer Services explaining in detail my problems and requesting that the tyres are inspected. I'll see how it goes. Do you have any direct contacts in Continental that you could maybe point me towards (in a PM) that could may be help? At least I have piece of mind that my alignment is fine! Many Thanks! I think we have agreed that three centres all using top equipment and the vibrations the same then it must be another reason. Like you said the problem only evolved when the tyres were fitted so it must be a fault with them. My only leads with conti would be to send the tyres back... this is no good for you since an engineer needs to come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmo Posted March 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Hi Tony, Thanks for your time today. As I said when I phoned you, unfortunately I still have the vibration. As I drove further North it became apparent that there isn't much change to how it felt before. As you said, I guess this leads on to a possible tyre(s) problem. I have emailed Continental UK Customer Services explaining in detail my problems and requesting that the tyres are inspected. I'll see how it goes. Do you have any direct contacts in Continental that you could maybe point me towards (in a PM) that could may be help? At least I have piece of mind that my alignment is fine! Many Thanks! I think we have agreed that three centres all using top equipment and the vibrations the same then it must be another reason. Like you said the problem only evolved when the tyres were fitted so it must be a fault with them. My only leads with conti would be to send the tyres back... this is no good for you since an engineer needs to come out. OK Tony - Thanks again. I will keep you updated with progress through Continental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmo Posted March 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Update: Tony, I've had a very prompt, detailed and helpful email response from a Product Support Engineer at Continental UK. The outcome is that they are going to arrange for a local Continental Field Support Engineer to come out and visit me to inspect the Tyres and also for me to demonstrate the problem. This could then lead on to the Tyres needing to be returned to the Continental Test facility. All of this is excellent news as I may finally get to the bottom of the problem - it simply must be either 1 or more faulty Tyres. However, if the Tyres need returning for inspection (which I guess they will need to be ultimately), this will cause me some problems as I don't have any 'spare wheels' or 'Tyres' to use in the mean time and rely on the car daily - and so without having to fork out for more Tyres (a considerable sum to outlay - as you will know, but with no guarantee of them identifying my current Tyres as faulty) I will not be able to drive nor store my car. Anyway, first things first..... lets see what the Engineer has to say first...... and then take it from there! Do you know where the Conti Test Facility is located out of interest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmo Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 UPDATE: Today I have spoken with a Continental Tyre Field Engineer. The initial conclusion is that there must be a problem relating to the Tyre(s) (as we've already agreed). Therefore, the proposal is that I am going to meet with the Continental Engineer who will inspect the tyres and also have some replacement Tyres with him to get switched over if there is anything identified as looking like a problem. This is excellent customer service from Continental! So, due to my work commitments & the engineer going on holiday, I hope to make an appointment sometime within the next few weeks to resolve the vibration / shimmy issue. I will let you know if this sorts the problem. On another note, I will be in contact with you within the next 1-2 weeks to book my wife's Vectra in for a full geometry set-up, so look forward to meeting you and the team again then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 UPDATE:Today I have spoken with a Continental Tyre Field Engineer. The initial conclusion is that there must be a problem relating to the Tyre(s) (as we've already agreed). Therefore, the proposal is that I am going to meet with the Continental Engineer who will inspect the tyres and also have some replacement Tyres with him to get switched over if there is anything identified as looking like a problem. This is excellent customer service from Continental! So, due to my work commitments & the engineer going on holiday, I hope to make an appointment sometime within the next few weeks to resolve the vibration / shimmy issue. I will let you know if this sorts the problem. On another note, I will be in contact with you within the next 1-2 weeks to book my wife's Vectra in for a full geometry set-up, so look forward to meeting you and the team again then. Superb news..... Conti are very good when it comes to customer support, some years back i had a customer with vibration issues but the field engineer couldn't make up his mind if the tyres were to blame, in the end he agreed to replace all four (although only three were suspect) at the cost to them of £1500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIH Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Have to admit Conti seem much more interested than I expected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Have to admit Conti seem much more interested than I expected Their playing with the big boys now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmo Posted March 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 FINAL UPDATE Yesterday I met with the Continental Field Engineer who inspected my tyres. He was able to identify, that one of the front tyres was indeed out of Continentals spec for run-out on a Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Machine (90 - not sure what this is measured in). He then promptly had the tyre changed over for a brand new replacement. The other front tyre provided a run out reading of 10, whilst the replacement tyre, once fitted gave a reading of only 5. I am now delight to report that I no longer have any vibration! A MASSIVE RESULT!!!!! The professionalism and support offered by Continental is outstanding - I certainly doubt that many of the other tyre companies would match this? I was not charged a penny either, all of which has gone a long way to ensuring that I remain loyal to the Continental Brand in the future. The car now drives like the day I bought it brand new! Whilst this has been a long, frustrating few months, I have got there in the end. Tony, I may be paying you a third visit with my dad's car - a Vauxhall Vectra Design (2004) for an alignment check / adjustment. Basically, several months ago he came back to his car to find it had been hit whilst in a public car park. What ever had hit it must have been large / heavy as the damage was considerable to the front end relative to only been done whilst stationary in a car park (who ever did it left the scene with no details etc.). As my father is in the motor-trade, he repaired the damage himself and sent the car to a bodyshop for painting. However, yesterday whilst servicing the car, he found excessive wear on both front tyres and also a 'cracked wheel rim' on the inside edge, which he can only presume happened at the time of the mentioned incident as the car has not received any other 'impacts'. This all indicates there must be an alignment issue somewhere (hopefully nothing bent), so I will look to book this in sometime during the next few weeks - preferably on a Saturday morning again. It's just a shame it's so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Excellent result (finally)..... Fair play to Continental who in my experience have unquestionable customer service, admittedly it's a shame you felt the need to take an extended path to resolve the problem since the tyre make is held in such high regard, nevertheless Continental have been exemplary when called into the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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