More grip than Dunlop RT

[chrisgixer]

RT was replacement for the discontinued TT, I believe. Not as good.

 

Lasted 5000 miles before the handling became unacceptable with half the legal tread gone.

 

Will look into the pilot sport range. I did suggest that primacy where more of a mileage tyre, and that a more suitable sport orientated tyre must be available from Michelin. .....but certain members there wouldnt have it. Rightly or wrongly. They know who they are. (Members here too lol)

[chrisgixer]

Apologies for the typos btw. Steve Jobs software and fat fingers not a good combo.

[TheBoy]

chrisgixer - I had the Michelin Pilot Sport 3's on the chavmobile when I first got it, admittedly down to about 6mm tread.  I still remember the look of sheer fear on Lazydocker's face as we drifted ever closer to a truck on the BP roundabout when doing the high speed LPG calibrations

 

I soon wrecked those tyres, as they simply lack the all round grip, they were far too easy to overdrive, and they ended up, to use your term, clown car tyres.

 

Yet I know that PS3 is the tyre of choice for Porsche Boxsters...  ...admittedly in different sizes though.

 

 

I have run Dunlop RT's for a while, and up until this last set, have been delighted with them. Very well suited to the Omega, though lacking the outright stability of the previous TT's which I had several sets of.  However, I'm disappointed with the current set on my MV6, they are easily upset by road imperfections, and seem to lack the overall level of grip that the previous set had

 

I wonder if anyone from WIM/Blackboots can comment if Dunlop have changed the tyre, or moved its manufacturing facility etc, using their insider contacts?  If we have variances in the tyre's compound or where its made, that adds yet another consideration when working out what works and what doesn't.

 

 

As to the Falkens, I've driven bad ones (chrisgixer's - an enthusiastic driver - this car simply would not go straight, it was dangerous to drive down the road and keep it in your lane) and "good" ones (another local omegaowners.com member who drives like Miss Daisy - these had excellent stability, were silent, and had reasonable levels of grip despite being at the end of their life).

 

Does this suggest its possible to destroy a tyre early in its life by over driving it?  If so, that could explain why I've had a shocking time with Conti SC5 and GY F1S2.  This could be yet another problem with tyre recommendations, and why tyre threads on omegaowners.com usually end up somewhat passionate.

 

 

Sorry chrisgixer, doesn't help with your predicament , I'm just trying to understand why tyres work for some, and are a complete menace for others, even if the cars aren't massively dissimilar.

[liner33]

Ok, I was hoping to avoid the Falken thing, and that people here had forgotten mine and others experiences of that disaster of a tyre and the havoc it causes with omega handling under certain circumstances, especially on enthusiastically driven Elites with soft suspension.

Personally I think drifting is absolutely ideal for any Falken as their inherent refusal to go in a straight line will never be exposed in that disaplin.

.....however that would be unfair on liner33 as he couldn't possibly have known, and my experience is with the 451 and 192 not the newer model which might be fine. I have also driven smaller more accurately suspended cars than the onega that where fine on Falkens.

Then again, I have to say, drifting is of no use to me as pointer the tyre quality. Fitting end to a Falken or not.

 

I've used Falken 451* and 452 but that doesnt mean they have any bearing on the 453 which is more towards 451 in grip levels

 

* in my 400hp Skyline , on track.

 

 

I'm currently running Falken ze914 on my Skoda Superb diesel which is a similar weight and performance as the Big Omegas they are pretty good , again better ime than any Dunlop product I have tried

[Tony]

Problem with the pilot sport range is the various models are marque specific i:e the HX is BMW SX Merc and so on but few tyre shops know this.

[TheBoy]

Hi liner33, I think chrisgixer's issue with the Falken range is not so much outright grip - IMHO they provide reasonable grip, certainly well within the midrange territory - but directional stability.  I did once drive his car with Falkens that had done a few thousand miles, probably about 1/3rd or half worn, and it was lethal. Honestly, you were fighting the steering wheel like those American 1960s films, just to keep it on your side of the road.

 

This was at one of our omegaowners car meets, so to prove if it was chassis or tyres, we swapped wheels over with my car (running SP9000s at the time), and the problem moved to my car.

 

I believe he sent the tyres back to manufacturer for testing, and they stated no problem found.

 

 

 

I think part of the problem may be what works on one car might not work on another.

 

Take P6000s for instance. Every single car I'd ever had them on I thought they were utter trash. So imagine my horror when I bought a new Rover 25 and it came with P6000s .  Yet the thing went round corners better than any other FWD car I'd driven.  I tried all sorts of other tyres on it, none worked like the P6000s.

 

 

Another part of the problem, hinted at in an earlier post, is is the tyre ruined if overdriven early in its life?

 

I had a full set of SC5's put on one of the Omegas at the same time as WIM did the geo. While initially the straight line stability was OK, the level of grip was appalling.  Within a couple of weeks, straight line stability from the fronts was just not there.  (Un?)fortunately, the fronts only lasted 3k before being absolutely spent - and that was without trying. The rears made it through to 5k.  The short life I put down to having such poor levels of grip, they were constantly sliding around, even when driving relatively sedately.

 

I've suffered similar with GY F1A2, although out of the 6 tyres I've had, 2 had shown air pockets in the rubber towards the end of their life, and 2 had shown worrying inside edge sidewall cracking at half worn, for which Dunlop Goodyear are giving me a 40% credit after inspecting them, an admission they were faulty.

 

 

For me, the best tyre that was available for the Omega was the old SportMaxx TT. Not trackday levels of grip, but still very good.  However, its stability and predictability was absolutely bang on.  The replacement, RT, had better levels of grip (or at least the first couple of sets I had - the current set are lacking a bit, don't know what's changed with them?)

 

 

It seems to be a minefield out there, with tyre review sites being almost meaningless, and the only option is some very expensive experimentation, which is an unacceptable IMHO.  And this new(ish) stupid EU kack labelling has made matters worse.

[Tony]

I totally agree about the labelling it's totally deceiving unless we all drive in factory test conditions... What really gets me is the DB score because 90% of the harmonics is due to the road surface not the tyre. 

[chrisgixer]

Re model specific tyres.

I had generic sc3 on Oe wheels on omega. 235x?x17 no problems.

Moved up to 18's with sc3 Mercedes only or whatever the "o" means. Even better presumably due to 245 width.

Once those wore out my supplier opposed up and only had ao1 sc3 in stock. Turned out to be an audi fitment. Completely differant animal. Wore out quicker with nowhere near the stability of the mo version. I knew I'd made a mistake just by driving out if the Depo. Instantly noticeably more sensitive to road imperfections. (Tramlining generally speaking) binned early as they became dangerous on the brakes. Darting to the kerb or into oncoming traffic in emergency braking situations, something the Mrs wouldn't be able to hold on line due to lack of strength.

 

Back to mo sc3, the clouds parted, the sun came out, and all was right with the world again. Stability, grip (not outright grip but that associated with a proper contact patch) precise handling generally. ....But some under steer.

 

Which brings me nicely back round to the question at hand. I feel confident PS3 would go the same way as on TheBoys omega.

 

Are pilot super sport that much better than PS3? And will they work the same on your car as mine/our omegas...? Certainly I would not fit an Audi only or Porsche only tyre.

 

While I am more than happy to pay top money for a tyre that works, given the problems we've had, I am extremely loathed to pay top money to find the tyre transforms the car into a death trap desperate to leave the road at the slightest road imperfection after a few k miles.

 

A leap of faith though, is part of the game it seems....?

[parthiban]

One thing that's baffling me slightly, you mentioned in the OP that the SC3 is working well on the rear - why not just fit those to the front?

 

Fitting Mercedes fitment is fair enough, but fitting Audi fitment doesn't sound like a particularly good idea given they're front wheel drive and very nose heavy.

[Tony]

I said the same thing?

[parthiban]

I said the same thing?

 

So you did

[chrisgixer]

Because the rears are wider.

 

As said, 265 9j rear 245 8j front. No?

 

There was no understeer with OE 17" wheels same width front and back/sc3 all round.

 

So, given the same TYPE of tyres all round, the wider rears would give more grip surely ? Hence the front lets go first and gives understeer...?

 

I thought i pointed that out no?

[chrisgixer]

From top of post 1.

 

I'm on the mobile site, which doesn't appear to quote button so copied and pasted.

 

 

 

 

Wheels are staggered.

 

9j rear with 265x35x18 sports content 3. Massive side grip. Good wear and stability. (Bit noisy but not bothered)

 

8j front. 245x40x18 Dunlop sport maxx RT. A grippy tyre. Not as stable as sc3 as the wear starts to deform the profile. "UNEVEN" Wear not excessive, but the instability is becoming a bit much after 5000miles.

[chrisgixer]

Re Audi fitment. Yes I know that now. :y

 

But your post and my experience of the ao1 sc3 in proof enough that not all sc3 where created equal. So it would follow, that not all tyres work equally on all cars. Which also applies to Falkens btw.

 

The very fact that manufacturers either pick existing/or develop their own tyres to suit a particular car, automatically means not all tyres work on all cars. Right? Or have I missed something?

[liner33]

Isn't 265's and even 245's for that matter a total overkill on a Omega . You can't expect tyres to make up for lack of mechanical grip

[chrisgixer]

Irmscher sport pack available as a factory fit option.

 

Arguably the omega is not the best chassis in the world for that size of car, but most of the work on this car is in preparation for a v8 project that I might finish one day.

 

If I do then this will need fixing. Possibly by narrower rears. But in the mean time, to answer your question.... No.

[parthiban]

Your logic has me completely confused. Having wider rear tyres doesn't induce understeer. It just gives you better rear grip

 

In terms of your front tyres and reducing understeer, stick on grippier tyres. If you're happy that the SC3 gives you good grip, get those.

 

Other than that you're limited by the chassis characteristics, have you tried running a little more camber at the front maybe?

[chrisgixer]

So you don't think a wider contact patch at the rear would give potential for more grip at the rear....?

 

I don't want to sound abrupt so appologies in advance, but can I suggest a re read of post 1? It's all there.

 

Bearing in mind we're taking balance. Mid corner. Corner speed. ... In this scenario, front lets go first. As it would, arguably.

 

Happy with the rear grip level, dont want to touch that although i realise I may have to. Ultimately.

 

As said earlier. I had conti sc3 and had a level of understeer. Replaced those with initially gripier RT which improves the understeer.

 

While RT didn't last, they did prove that more front grip helps the under steer.

 

Re camber it's set to WIM sport settings at -1.15. That's not to say more camber wouldn't help, it may do, although iirc more camber affects straight line stability....? (worse.) which I'm already struggling with although that's probably the RT's, known to be less stable than sc3 anyway.

[chrisgixer]

So to clarify further.

 

Mid corner both tyres starting to squeal on the edge of traction. Car is balanced.

 

Still in that corner, both tyres on the edge of grip. Wave a magic wand and make the rears an inch wider, for argument sake. The rears now have more grip so stop squealing. I can now go faster without loosing the rear .

 

Except that the front is now braking loose as speed increases. Aka Under steer.

Logic now says wave that Magic wand and make the fronts wider too(to me at least). So we can match the rear end grip and go faster or safer round the same corner. Except we can't do that as the strut and wheel arch are in the way.

 

So I now need more grip at the front. To stop the under steer.

Gripier front tyres works, I know this from the RT experiment although they wore quickly and are now not suitable. But they did give more grip and help the under steer.

 

More camber might be an option, maybe Tony would add his thoughts there? Already -1.15 though. :-\

 

 

It's mid corner balance that's at the heart of the issue. Arguably the wider rears has upset this balance, but I don't want to remove grip, especially given the v8 project and the fact that under steer is safer than over steer.

 

Hopefully that makes sense?

[parthiban]

Worth bearing in mind that a V8 is most likely to give you more weight at the front and make your understeer issues even worse.

 

The only answer though again in this position is to stick the grippiest tyre available on the front. And among pretty much everything I've read, that is currently believed to be the Michelin Pilot Super Sport.

[chrisgixer]

V8 is alloy block ls1. Omega y32se is cast iron block. So weight shouldn't be too far away, but a valid point non the less.

 

 

And for reasons stated earlier, I tend to look for first hand experience when researching these things. Although unlikely to find any omega love here, with pss fitted, it's a wobbly old boat unless it's maintained continually in the chassis dept.

 

 

Maybe the Mercedes forum with be worth a look too. E class (?) looks to be the same weight ish.

[liner33]

My e320 cdi had 235/45/17's all round , always stuck with Eagle F1 and never struggled with grip in the dry neither front or rear but then I had sports suspension on it .

 

Again similar power , performance and a hell of a lot more torque

 

If the suspension isn't keeping the tyre planted then fitting wider ones won't solve the issue

[chrisgixer]

Have driven other members cars on 17" f1a2 and would see that as a step back tbh. A good all round tyre don't get me wrong but, as all things are relative, we have found better grip levels on other tyres such as sc3 and RT, and especially the old Dunlop TT. But more expensive obviously. F1 being a bit waxy by comparison Esp. in colder temps.

 

Although, to achieve a balance, if the rears where due for replacement, then f1 would be a way. But the over all grip level would suffer.

 

 

I see Dunlop still list the TT. Not that any usefull size comes up of course.

[liner33]

You are blaming the tyres but I think you are missing the true culprit . If the 235 Eagle F1 is sufficient for a car thats more powerful, has more torque (Like 150ft lbs more!) and is quicker yet is heavier then perhaps there are better place to look if you want to improve overall grip, handling and balance.

[parthiban]

You are blaming the tyres but I think you are missing the true culprit . If the 235 Eagle F1 is sufficient for a car thats more powerful, has more torque (Like 150ft lbs more!) and is quicker yet is heavier then perhaps there are better place to look if you want to improve overall grip, handling and balance.

 

This is valid - one of our cars is a CLS, so like the E Class you mentioned similar in size and weight (probably), plus it has a similar set up of 245 at the front and 275 at the rear. It's on Dunlop SP01s (so not a top performance tyre) and perhaps I'm not driving it as hard as you are (I don't track it) but don't experience any of the issues you're discussing here.

 

Have you looked at some minor upgrades to sharpen the front end? Stiffer roll bar, different suspension, etc?