David Anderson Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Unfortunately I live in central Scotland and cannot visit yourselves having read many good things online. The previous owner of my NC had to have front spring tat was fractured along with a drop link replaced and to be on the safe side with it I thought I would do the alignment when I got the car because of this. The car tramlines and is quite jumpy left to right on bumpy/uneven roads which I am putting down to the front tyres which dont have long left in them and are avon's with the triangular style directional tread - 16" wheel on stock suspension. Anyway I had the local mazda dealer to the alignment thinking they would be best - there was some improvement but I wasnt totally happy with it (see 1st attached image) So I returned and asked them to do it again and gave them numbers I wanted which they totally ignored and re done themselves (see second attachment) Could you look at these numbers and advise if I should return AGAIN -they checked all the suspension and put the tram lining down to tyres and said everything looks ok apart from play in a rear drop link so I have ordered a pair. The rear camber is 1.18deg difference from left to right though and the caster isnt as exact as I would have liked. The numbers I wrote down for them on the 2nd visit were front toe in 0.07 / camber 0.5 and caster 6 rear toe in 0.014 and camber of 1.5. Both times i dealership fashion I didn't get to see the car done the receptionist come went to relayed what I had asked tot he service manager who come round to get the car and dropped it back off and told her what to say to me from his findings. Its still a bit jumpy and tramlines but going from what they say everything seems OK and its more than likely the tyres and assured me the alignment was fine. 1st alignment - 2nd alignment - Sorry just realised this should be in the geometry forum! doh! Edited January 6, 2014 by David Anderson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Anderson Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Also I have noticed the 'diagnosis' doesnt match the 1st alignment settings - at all! Unfortunately I only noticed when I got home...Duff machine or possible settings from a previous alignment thats not been cleared? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Hi David I'll try not to complicate things but there is problems with those reports. Mazda offers a table of geometric positions that change depending on the body height. Most machines ask for this height during the set-up process. For example the front camber range could be from +27' to -51' depending on the height. On your reports the target data is missing so how did they know where to correctly set the angles. For reasons i won't go into now, Mazda allow a huge disparity between each wheels angles over the axle. I allow next to nothing because the car is very sensitive to it. At the moment even Mazda's huge tolerance is violated in the front castor and rear camber, in fact i'm not to happy with the front camber disparity. Just so you know the height measurement is called the "trim height". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Anderson Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Thank you very much for your reply. What would you reccomend I say to them? I am definitely not happy havin paid for a 4 wheel alignment to still not have it anywhere near perfect. The ride height is slightly lower on the driver front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 If the machine doesn't hold the trim height data the you need to ask what target they where shooting for. In addition the "over axle" disparity in the positions is REALLY sloppy and there's no need for this if the chassis is fully adjustable and on your car it is. What many tyre shops fail to understand is the geometric figures also represent forces that generate different handling traits. There has! to be a balance of forces because they interact, not only on each corner but also side-to-side and front-to-rear. If you want i can talk to them to explain the error in their ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Anderson Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 That would be fantastic. I spoke to the service manager today who was reluctant to even speak to me and was trying send the receptionist back over with a message. He has booked the car in in Monday morning to do again. When I mentioned the diagnosis of the 2nd alignment being totally diffrent numbers than the 1st alignment results (assuming the machine hadn't been reset or something) he said oh that's normal. If I done it again now and drove it off the ramp and back on again all the numbers would differ! How would you need to speak to them? Thanks again for your help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Different fuel level will change the readings a little as well as a small change if the car is driven off/ on the ramp. Did you mention about the trim height to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Anderson Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 He wasnt really listening to what I was saying when I was trying to explain it and pointing to the differing numbers in the rear camber/caster. He just kept talking over me and pointing to the receptionist to book the car in when he is working. I did mention the front driver side sitting a little lower and that there was work down to the front driver side by the previous owner for last MOT in September on spring/drop link fail for broken parts. I wanted them to give that a good look over to make sure it is all good with the bushes etc as the car is a bit sloppy/wobbly at higher motorway speeds and tramlines quite a bit. All looks good to me and all that as mentioned on the 2nd alignment when I had said the same to the receptionist was the rear driver side drop link having play in it. I dont think I will ever be using that dealership again once this is sorted out, maybe to order a part if needed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Is this the service manager Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Anderson Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Good point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I think the reason the guy your dealing with is so standoffish is he doesn't have a clue about the complaint on the technical side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMARTLY Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Yes, ask to speak to the monkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markff Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I would be tempted to take it to another garage where they have a hunter wheel alignment machine but also offer a free vehicle check. I took my car to STS tyre pro's and they put the car on the machine and measured all the angles. They admitted that they weren't the experts when it came to setting up the S2000 and pointed me in the direction of Wheels in motion. Didn't charge me a penny. At least that way they can give you a printout and even if you have no intention of getting them to adjust it you know where you stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickT Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Remind me again why people think the main dealers are the best to take their cars to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Anderson Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I have no idea honestly. I have never use a dealer in my life for anything for that very reason. This time I have no idea what made me think thu would do better! Can't be botherd paying twice now and would rather they just got it right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Anderson Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Also. Would the caster being deferent on each wheel be what's causing the car To feel' like it wants to go right all the time? It's deferent by half a degree I think according to that printout. It doesn't drift to the right as such but the feeling in the wheel is that it wants to go right... If that makes sense at all 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMARTLY Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Remind me again why people think the main dealers are the best to take their cars to? Either the car is under warranty or they think the dealer is best. In this case I think the dealer has already proved they are not the best and I would say it's unlikely they will rectify their previous errors, if they can't get it right in two attempts then probability says they won't get it right next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Also. Would the caster being deferent on each wheel be what's causing the car To feel' like it wants to go right all the time? It's deferent by half a degree I think according to that printout. It doesn't drift to the right as such but the feeling in the wheel is that it wants to go right... If that makes sense at all Probably feels easier to turn right due the the OSF camber and castor disparity. As said before the figures also represent forces and each angles force changes as the suspension transitions. The static positions are a real measure of the dynamic handling. At the moment yours is dire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Anderson Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Also. Would the caster being deferent on each wheel be what's causing the car To feel' like it wants to go right all the time? It's deferent by half a degree I think according to that printout. It doesn't drift to the right as such but the feeling in the wheel is that it wants to go right... If that makes sense at all Probably feels easier to turn right due the the OSF camber and castor disparity. As said before the figures also represent forces and each angles force changes as the suspension transitions. The static positions are a real measure of the dynamic handling. At the moment yours is dire. Thanks, would you have any recommendations of numbers that they should be aiming for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Still depends on that trim height...... If you measure front the middle of the centre cap up to the lip on the wheel arch at 12Oclock front and rear, then i can give you the correct data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Anderson Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I will have a look at that tonight if I can find some really flat land! I never made a note when I was checking and noticed the driver side was lower. Should just be standard height for 16" 1.8 NC1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Can you get me the height for all the wheels so i can see if the OSF trim is an issue. Point to note there is no standard height due to the suspensions sag over time, hence the reason you need specific positions for the current trim height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Anderson Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Ok I will get that tonight. From the center of the wheel to the arch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Anderson Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I dont have a measuring tape here but when I was out at the car at lunch I had a quick look on the front shocks both sides and the springs seem to be perched diffrent from passenger to drivers side... I can see the end of the spring towards me on the passenger side but the drivers one seems to be 'wound round' further and is hidden.. Ill try get photos - still have no idea if only 1 or both springs were done for the MOT fail in september by previous owner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Ok I will get that tonight. From the center of the wheel to the arch Yep that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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