BrianJP Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Do any of the experts have the answer to this problem? A Mondeo Estate I drive has an annoying droning/whining noise that appears to come from the rear at between 30 and 55 mph. It seems to have started after 4 new tyres were fitted (Pirelli P6000) although I cannot be certain as for the first 5K miles I also had a pair of Thule roof bars on the car that make similar noise . At the time these tyres were fitted the vehicle was taken to Ford Dealer body shop to have a full alignment check to correct a rear camber problem which they did. The vehicle has now completed 20k miles since these tyres were fitted and the noise is still present, although it can vary or disappear completely according to the road surface. Ie ; very smooth surface ,noisy .coarser surface non existent. There is no excessive wear on any tyre ( Front 5-4-5 Rear 4-5-4) except that the rears are showing signs of feathering on both the inside and outside 25% . There would not appear to be any problem with the wheel bearings as I carried out a check myself and the car has gone through 2 MOT’s where this is supposed to be checked out. Having seen posts on other sites re similar problems I swapped L and R rear wheels as tyres are non directional and although noise is still present I would say it is slightly attenuated. I am inclined to think that the problem is just these tyres on this car but maybe someone has a better answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Seems probable, although the P6000 is normally a problem free tyre. What you need to do is check for "heel-and-toe" tyre wear... This is when the tread wears in an undulating fashion, here's an extreme example> Obviously this is advanced but you get the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Not a wheel bearing is it? <_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Not a wheel bearing is it? No that's been checked.... anyway the bearing noise wouldn't change by moving the tyres around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Not a wheel bearing is it? No that's been checked.... anyway the bearing noise wouldn't change by moving the tyres around. Note to self: read post properly! <_> Strange then but that tyre wear is odd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Not a wheel bearing is it? No that's been checked.... anyway the bearing noise wouldn't change by moving the tyres around. Note to self: read post properly! Strange then but that tyre wear is odd! On that type of car and tyre the reason is almost definetly suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianJP Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Not a wheel bearing is it? No that's been checked.... anyway the bearing noise wouldn't change by moving the tyres around. Note to self: read post properly! Strange then but that tyre wear is odd! On that type of car and tyre the reason is almost definetly suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianJP Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Not a wheel bearing is it? No that's been checked.... anyway the bearing noise wouldn't change by moving the tyres around. Note to self: read post properly! Strange then but that tyre wear is odd! On that type of car and tyre the reason is almost definetly suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianJP Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 No heel and toe wear visible as u show.If I took a pix now of tyres u would probably say they looked fine.Can on detect slight feathering by visual examination and this is after 20K mls . U say probably suspension problem what are we talking about vehicle has done 65k. Rear shocks were replaced at 25k by Ford as part of a recall and still appear to be ok. Assume all bushes etc ok as Mot'd only 6 wks ago and have carried out basic checks myself. Thanks for input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 If the wears not undulating then fine.... Obviously there shouldn't be any feathering so some thing's wrong there, problem i'm having is i cannot think why a "non-visible" tyre defect would make a noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianJP Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 Tony thanks for the reply I must admit this has me perplexed. I jacked up the car yesterday to make double sure that it wasn’t a wheel bearing problem and could not find any play or roughness on any wheel. In any event if it was bearing problem I find it hard to believe that it has been present for 20k mls without the bearing collapsing. Also since the noise does vary according to the road surface it must be tyre related. Bearing noise would be present regardless Also the feathering is so slight that it has either only developed recently or has been happening over a long period so I wouldn’t have thought that this was the cause of the noise either. Interestingly the front tyres also show very slight signs of feathering on both edges but much less obvious than the rears. All this brings me back to my original conclusion that it is simply a case of these tyres on this vehicle unless of course they have some hidden fault. It would be interesting to know if anyone here has had a similar problem as on other sites posts indicated it is not unusual . I would like to know though what causes feathering on both edges of tyres. I have attached the link to 2 pix I took of one of the rear tyres. As I said in and earlier post you cannot see much ,but you can just make out the feathering in the side view. http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk157/b...008/Misc934.jpg http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk157/b...008/Misc935.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 The second picture has "heel-and-toe" wear..... If you look at the blocks they start/ finish at different heights, that's your noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianJP Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 OK but the noise has been there for almost the entire time the tyres have been on the vehicle (20K) without change so what could have caused that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 OK but the noise has been there for almost the entire time the tyres have been on the vehicle (20K) without change so what could have caused that ? Tyre make and suitability is a problem, in fact one of the wim members recently bought tyres for his Lexus and there's major issues with the handling.... It could be said the P6000 doesn't suit your car?..... as for the change now i would say suspension deterioration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianJP Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 OK but the noise has been there for almost the entire time the tyres have been on the vehicle (20K) without change so what could have caused that ? Tyre make and suitability is a problem, in fact one of the wim members recently bought tyres for his Lexus and there's major issues with the handling.... It could be said the P6000 doesn't suit your car?..... as for the change now i would say suspension deterioration. Now I know the correct description of the wear pattern is heel and toe I have done some on line research.There would appear to be many similar cases to mine particularly on various Seat Models using Bridgestones,so perhaps it is just some incompatibility issue after all. In any event as I haved swapped the rear wheels Left to Right and vice -versa as stated in my original post I guess that the high edge of the outer blocks will slowly wear down during the remaining life of the tyres reducing the noise level at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazz33 Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 OK but the noise has been there for almost the entire time the tyres have been on the vehicle (20K) without change so what could have caused that ? Tyre make and suitability is a problem, in fact one of the wim members recently bought tyres for his Lexus and there's major issues with the handling.... It could be said the P6000 doesn't suit your car?..... as for the change now i would say suspension deterioration. I wonder who that might be....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIH Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 OK but the noise has been there for almost the entire time the tyres have been on the vehicle (20K) without change so what could have caused that ? Tyre make and suitability is a problem, in fact one of the wim members recently bought tyres for his Lexus and there's major issues with the handling.... It could be said the P6000 doesn't suit your car?..... as for the change now i would say suspension deterioration. Now I know the correct description of the wear pattern is heel and toe I have done some on line research.There would appear to be many similar cases to mine particularly on various Seat Models using Bridgestones,so perhaps it is just some incompatibility issue after all. In any event as I haved swapped the rear wheels Left to Right and vice -versa as stated in my original post I guess that the high edge of the outer blocks will slowly wear down during the remaining life of the tyres reducing the noise level at the same time. Usually once a wear pattern is established it remains for the life of a tyre but, TBH, I'm not sure if that applies to H & T wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 OK but the noise has been there for almost the entire time the tyres have been on the vehicle (20K) without change so what could have caused that ? Tyre make and suitability is a problem, in fact one of the wim members recently bought tyres for his Lexus and there's major issues with the handling.... It could be said the P6000 doesn't suit your car?..... as for the change now i would say suspension deterioration. Now I know the correct description of the wear pattern is heel and toe I have done some on line research.There would appear to be many similar cases to mine particularly on various Seat Models using Bridgestones,so perhaps it is just some incompatibility issue after all. In any event as I haved swapped the rear wheels Left to Right and vice -versa as stated in my original post I guess that the high edge of the outer blocks will slowly wear down during the remaining life of the tyres reducing the noise level at the same time. Usually once a wear pattern is established it remains for the life of a tyre but, TBH, I'm not sure if that applies to H & T wear. Good call, in truth nor am i..... I think the best method would be to reverse the rotation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianJP Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Hi again. Well as I swapped Left and right wheels I have reversed the rotation so will see what happens. Interestingly research on the web revealed ( as you may know) that H & T wear is a common problem on truck tyres due to tread designs.The general advice from many sources in their case is to swap wheels trans-axle before the wear becomes to great to even it out before re-treading the tyres Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Hi again.Well as I swapped Left and right wheels I have reversed the rotation so will see what happens. Interestingly research on the web revealed ( as you may know) that H & T wear is a common problem on truck tyres due to tread designs.The general advice from many sources in their case is to swap wheels trans-axle before the wear becomes to great to even it out before re-treading the tyres I was involved in a topic on this years ago that went to arbitration over the pond... here's the highlights ............................................................ Hello, the pattern of wear is called "heel and toe", and the true cause is Still open to debate worldwide, to date I have written two papers on this Topic that is going to arbitration so you can see the problem is quite Serious. I will summarize the two papers, if you overlap your car and problem we can Mediate between the two most likely possibilities. 1: P1: Compression: Tread pattern: The tyre tread in essence is without structure and subject to compression Between the road and the constructive casing, the "rolling" influence Concludes that the tyre tread will have an "compression" on and "release" Off, so in effect "pinch" the rubber, the ratio is higher on the back edge Of the tread bar since this will be the final point that delivers the Vehicles weight via thrust and subject to a higher wear ratio. 1.2: All tyres are subjected to the same force but show different levels of Resistance, so an habitual trait between tyre tread pattern can be assumed, Study shows. 1: Directional tyres low resistance 2: asymmetrical tyres moderate resistance 3: symmetrical tyres high resistance 1.3: explanation: Taken that the pattern of wear is due to "compression" and "Release" then the tyre be it front or rear is also subject to the point of Load "camber" this will conclude that the "heel and toe" pattern will not Cover the whole tyre width. 2:P2: Suspension: Drive: The relationship between the vehicles parallelograms is through the Suspension, on cornering the weight transfer will unload the inner Transverse wheels and is subject to "Damper" over coil control, if this Relationship is unbalanced then the coil spring will unload and generate a "Driver" area pattern of wear, this "pulse" will favour certain areas of the Tyre tread since no part of any tyre is symmetrical. 2.2: Study has shown that the "damper" theory is consistent with the Countries road lay out, passenger side wear/ driver's side wear, suggesting That the lack of damper over coil control and "heel and toe" is global 2.3: Type of drive: resistance to "heel and toe" has an evident scale over Drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianJP Posted January 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Hi again.Well as I swapped Left and right wheels I have reversed the rotation so will see what happens. Interestingly research on the web revealed ( as you may know) that H & T wear is a common problem on truck tyres due to tread designs.The general advice from many sources in their case is to swap wheels trans-axle before the wear becomes to great to even it out before re-treading the tyres I was involved in a topic on this years ago that went to arbitration over the pond... here's the highlights ............................................................ Hello, the pattern of wear is called "heel and toe", and the true cause is Still open to debate worldwide, to date I have written two papers on this Topic that is going to arbitration so you can see the problem is quite Serious. I will summarize the two papers, if you overlap your car and problem we can Mediate between the two most likely possibilities. 1: P1: Compression: Tread pattern: The tyre tread in essence is without structure and subject to compression Between the road and the constructive casing, the "rolling" influence Concludes that the tyre tread will have an "compression" on and "release" Off, so in effect "pinch" the rubber, the ratio is higher on the back edge Of the tread bar since this will be the final point that delivers the Vehicles weight via thrust and subject to a higher wear ratio. 1.2: All tyres are subjected to the same force but show different levels of Resistance, so an habitual trait between tyre tread pattern can be assumed, Study shows. 1: Directional tyres low resistance 2: asymmetrical tyres moderate resistance 3: symmetrical tyres high resistance 1.3: explanation: Taken that the pattern of wear is due to "compression" and "Release" then the tyre be it front or rear is also subject to the point of Load "camber" this will conclude that the "heel and toe" pattern will not Cover the whole tyre width. 2:P2: Suspension: Drive: The relationship between the vehicles parallelograms is through the Suspension, on cornering the weight transfer will unload the inner Transverse wheels and is subject to "Damper" over coil control, if this Relationship is unbalanced then the coil spring will unload and generate a "Driver" area pattern of wear, this "pulse" will favour certain areas of the Tyre tread since no part of any tyre is symmetrical. 2.2: Study has shown that the "damper" theory is consistent with the Countries road lay out, passenger side wear/ driver's side wear, suggesting That the lack of damper over coil control and "heel and toe" is global 2.3: Type of drive: resistance to "heel and toe" has an evident scale over Drive. Thanks Tony that should be enough theory to shut me up ! I can more or less follow it although that would mean that the P6000 should have high resistance to H & T wear ? As the suspension on the car appears to be functioning ok at the moment I think I will just keep an eye on things and live with the problem. One thing though ,would tyre pressures have any bearing on this type of wear .Although there is no excessive wear pattern (other than H&T) one of these rear wheels had a air leak due to poor fitting of the P6000 for some time, which meant its pressure could be down by up to 7-8 psi for short periods before I had the tyre refitted. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 I would say no because 1/3 of drivers don't monitor the pressure and H/T isn't that prolific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIH Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 how would fitting cause an air leak ? ripped bead ? damaged valve ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 how would fitting cause an air leak ? ripped bead ? damaged valve ? Probably poor rim preparation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianJP Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 how would fitting cause an air leak ? ripped bead ? damaged valve ? Probably poor rim preparation. They had cleaned the rim properly or where the valve seats inside the rim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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