TDIPLC Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 This one is for Tony and any other suspension Genii. We are developing a new road orientated suspension kit for a car (secret squirrel at the moment) using 3 way adjustable dampers. We have seen truly amazing results on the track using this system (2 seconds per lap), and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this concept or has tried it? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 This one is for Tony and any other suspension Genii. We are developing a new road orientated suspension kit for a car (secret squirrel at the moment) using 3 way adjustable dampers. We have seen truly amazing results on the track using this system (2 seconds per lap), and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this concept or has tried it? Thanks what about us mere mortals when you say three way adjustable dampers, do you mean height and damping adjustable, i am using the D2`s on the starlet, and they have an infinate amount of different adjustments, but are track orientated, which means although the can be adjusted for road use they are allways a bit stiff and therefore a bit uncomfortable for everyday road use presuming road orientated would have a more comfortable ride, but be less suitable for track use is it possible to have the best of both worlds !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDIPLC Posted May 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 This one is for Tony and any other suspension Genii. We are developing a new road orientated suspension kit for a car (secret squirrel at the moment) using 3 way adjustable dampers. We have seen truly amazing results on the track using this system (2 seconds per lap), and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this concept or has tried it? Thanks what about us mere mortals when you say three way adjustable dampers, do you mean height and damping adjustable, i am using the D2`s on the starlet, and they have an infinate amount of different adjustments, but are track orientated, which means although the can be adjusted for road use they are allways a bit stiff and therefore a bit uncomfortable for everyday road use presuming road orientated would have a more comfortable ride, but be less suitable for track use is it possible to have the best of both worlds !! Three way (or even better four way) adjustable damping is perfect for us mere mortals Let me explain (tapping chalk on blackboard) if I may? A two way adjustable damper allows you to adjust both bump (compression) and rebound (extension) rates to optimise handling to suit the application in normal use. That's fine, but what happens when the wheel hits a bump or pot hole? The car is sent completely off line because it's applying the same bump/rebound setting to a very fast change in cirumstances as is to it's normal operating conditions. What 3 and 4 way adjustable dampers allow you to do is to also set the bump and rebound for rapid reactions as well as for the normal slow reacting conditions. I'm not very good at explaining things so I hope that made sense Clearly, there is a layer of cost attached to this so it's not cheap, but anyone that has driven a car with good and bad suspension will know that it's money well spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Is this a coil over oil application or just a damper only configuration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDIPLC Posted May 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Is this a coil over oil application or just a damper only configuration. It can be either. It can also be gas or oil. The application we are working on at the moment is a coil over system. Exciting times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 This one is for Tony and any other suspension Genii. We are developing a new road orientated suspension kit for a car (secret squirrel at the moment) using 3 way adjustable dampers. We have seen truly amazing results on the track using this system (2 seconds per lap), and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this concept or has tried it? Thanks what about us mere mortals when you say three way adjustable dampers, do you mean height and damping adjustable, i am using the D2`s on the starlet, and they have an infinate amount of different adjustments, but are track orientated, which means although the can be adjusted for road use they are allways a bit stiff and therefore a bit uncomfortable for everyday road use presuming road orientated would have a more comfortable ride, but be less suitable for track use is it possible to have the best of both worlds !! Three way (or even better four way) adjustable damping is perfect for us mere mortals Let me explain (tapping chalk on blackboard) if I may? A two way adjustable damper allows you to adjust both bump (compression) and rebound (extension) rates to optimise handling to suit the application in normal use. That's fine, but what happens when the wheel hits a bump or pot hole? The car is sent completely off line because it's applying the same bump/rebound setting to a very fast change in cirumstances as is to it's normal operating conditions. What 3 and 4 way adjustable dampers allow you to do is to also set the bump and rebound for rapid reactions as well as for the normal slow reacting conditions. I'm not very good at explaining things so I hope that made sense Clearly, there is a layer of cost attached to this so it's not cheap, but anyone that has driven a car with good and bad suspension will know that it's money well spent. tsk tsk mark, its whiteboards now !, how long is it since you were at school if i am understanding this right normally when three way adjustment is mentioned it is concerning for example a "coilover" what you are saying is that your three way adjustment is solely concerning the damper sounds very complex but also sounds like you can have the best of both worlds i will sit back and listen now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDIPLC Posted May 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 This one is for Tony and any other suspension Genii. We are developing a new road orientated suspension kit for a car (secret squirrel at the moment) using 3 way adjustable dampers. We have seen truly amazing results on the track using this system (2 seconds per lap), and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this concept or has tried it? Thanks what about us mere mortals when you say three way adjustable dampers, do you mean height and damping adjustable, i am using the D2`s on the starlet, and they have an infinate amount of different adjustments, but are track orientated, which means although the can be adjusted for road use they are allways a bit stiff and therefore a bit uncomfortable for everyday road use presuming road orientated would have a more comfortable ride, but be less suitable for track use is it possible to have the best of both worlds !! Three way (or even better four way) adjustable damping is perfect for us mere mortals Let me explain (tapping chalk on blackboard) if I may? A two way adjustable damper allows you to adjust both bump (compression) and rebound (extension) rates to optimise handling to suit the application in normal use. That's fine, but what happens when the wheel hits a bump or pot hole? The car is sent completely off line because it's applying the same bump/rebound setting to a very fast change in cirumstances as is to it's normal operating conditions. What 3 and 4 way adjustable dampers allow you to do is to also set the bump and rebound for rapid reactions as well as for the normal slow reacting conditions. I'm not very good at explaining things so I hope that made sense Clearly, there is a layer of cost attached to this so it's not cheap, but anyone that has driven a car with good and bad suspension will know that it's money well spent. tsk tsk mark, its whiteboards now !, how long is it since you were at school if i am understanding this right normally when three way adjustment is mentioned it is concerning for example a "coilover" what you are saying is that your three way adjustment is solely concerning the damper sounds very complex but also sounds like you can have the best of both worlds i will sit back and listen now Blimey I thought blackboards were modern compared to the parchment and quill that I had when I was at school Three and four way adjustable shocks just refers the damping, and is considerably better that 1 or 2 way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Is this a coil over oil application or just a damper only configuration. It can be either. It can also be gas or oil. The application we are working on at the moment is a coil over system. Exciting times Exciting times indeed.... were is your intended market. Road/Track/Race?..... Is the evolution marque specific or global in fitment?.... Also are there additional compliments required to assist or evolve the new damper system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorps Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 What is the weight of these,are they lighter than stock? Will they have a cooling reservoir? Can they be reshimed by the owner or will they have to go back to you? Sorry for all the questions,but people will ask these Your 2 seconds a lap quicker?.............wet/dry same curcuit or different? Hope you've got plenty of chalk left Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 I've had a fair bit of fun playing with 2 way damping though currently run 1 for track use. I can see the benefit of 3 way on bad surface but a smooth track? I guess she'll ride the curbs a lot better... I'm certianly going to follow this with interest (not least because my HAs are getting past their best) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDIPLC Posted May 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 What is the weight of these,are they lighter than stock? Will they have a cooling reservoir? Can they be reshimed by the owner or will they have to go back to you? Sorry for all the questions,but people will ask these Your 2 seconds a lap quicker?.............wet/dry same curcuit or different? Hope you've got plenty of chalk left There's not generally a significant weight difference between 2 and 3 way adjustables. Where weight is an issue, they can be made in aluminium but that is more expensive. The project we are working on at he moment is not Japanese related - it's a high value British car whose owners are generally more quality than cost conscious. The shocks will have to be returned to the manufacturer for revalving. The issue regarding the reservoir will probably vary according to the application, but a separate reservoir is preferable. Regarding the 2 secs per lap, it's exacty the same conditions except for changing the shocks. I can see the benefit of 3 way on bad surface but a smooth track? I guess she'll ride the curbs a lot better... Exactly When a car is set up using one or two way damping (or no adjustment at all), there is a big compromise as it must be set for adequate performance beween slow and fast reacting damping. If it was optimised for slow reacting damping (which most set ups are) the car is unbalanced when a bump or dip is encountered. Conversely, if it is optimised for fast reacting damping, the car will be unstable under smooth conditions. Imagine a scenario where both conditions can be optimised - thats 3 and 4 way adjustable My chalk is running out now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Imagine a scenario where both conditions can be optimised Now you're just talking dirty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDIPLC Posted May 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Imagine a scenario where both conditions can be optimised Now you're just talking dirty... Yup, all great thing begin with fantasizing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted May 29, 2006 Report Share Posted May 29, 2006 What is the weight of these,are they lighter than stock? Will they have a cooling reservoir? Can they be reshimed by the owner or will they have to go back to you? Sorry for all the questions,but people will ask these Your 2 seconds a lap quicker?.............wet/dry same curcuit or different? Hope you've got plenty of chalk left There's not generally a significant weight difference between 2 and 3 way adjustables. Where weight is an issue, they can be made in aluminium but that is more expensive. The project we are working on at he moment is not Japanese related - it's a high value British car whose owners are generally more quality than cost conscious. The shocks will have to be returned to the manufacturer for revalving. The issue regarding the reservoir will probably vary according to the application, but a separate reservoir is preferable. Regarding the 2 secs per lap, it's exacty the same conditions except for changing the shocks. I can see the benefit of 3 way on bad surface but a smooth track? I guess she'll ride the curbs a lot better... Exactly When a car is set up using one or two way damping (or no adjustment at all), there is a big compromise as it must be set for adequate performance beween slow and fast reacting damping. If it was optimised for slow reacting damping (which most set ups are) the car is unbalanced when a bump or dip is encountered. Conversely, if it is optimised for fast reacting damping, the car will be unstable under smooth conditions. Imagine a scenario where both conditions can be optimised - thats 3 and 4 way adjustable My chalk is running out now I like this scenario... Weigh plates and 'pull downs' would add an interesting evolution i feel... Has this been explored.. If not can wim assist if only in data analysis furthering development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDIPLC Posted May 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2006 What is the weight of these,are they lighter than stock? Will they have a cooling reservoir? Can they be reshimed by the owner or will they have to go back to you? Sorry for all the questions,but people will ask these Your 2 seconds a lap quicker?.............wet/dry same curcuit or different? Hope you've got plenty of chalk left There's not generally a significant weight difference between 2 and 3 way adjustables. Where weight is an issue, they can be made in aluminium but that is more expensive. The project we are working on at he moment is not Japanese related - it's a high value British car whose owners are generally more quality than cost conscious. The shocks will have to be returned to the manufacturer for revalving. The issue regarding the reservoir will probably vary according to the application, but a separate reservoir is preferable. Regarding the 2 secs per lap, it's exacty the same conditions except for changing the shocks. I can see the benefit of 3 way on bad surface but a smooth track? I guess she'll ride the curbs a lot better... Exactly When a car is set up using one or two way damping (or no adjustment at all), there is a big compromise as it must be set for adequate performance beween slow and fast reacting damping. If it was optimised for slow reacting damping (which most set ups are) the car is unbalanced when a bump or dip is encountered. Conversely, if it is optimised for fast reacting damping, the car will be unstable under smooth conditions. Imagine a scenario where both conditions can be optimised - thats 3 and 4 way adjustable My chalk is running out now I like this scenario... Weigh plates and 'pull downs' would add an interesting evolution i feel... Has this been explored.. If not can wim assist if only in data analysis furthering development. I suspect that your input would be truly essential Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted May 29, 2006 Report Share Posted May 29, 2006 Quote:TDIPLC Not at STS unfortunately.... All my math is either in my head or if complicated a few hours with the old pen and paper... Geometry in truth should be as visible as a dyno.. Add every modification to the equation including Dampening/Coil Reaction then an image should be visible though the fog.... But new evolution like this dampening set-up invites constructive/destructive argument.. For Development between fields..... That's a good thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDIPLC Posted May 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2006 Quote:TDIPLCNot at STS unfortunately.... All my math is either in my head or if complicated a few hours with the old pen and paper... Geometry in truth should be as visible as a dyno.. Add every modification to the equation including Dampening/Coil Reaction then an image should be visible though the fog.... But new evolution like this dampening set-up invites constructive/destructive argument.. For Development between fields..... That's a good thing No doubt loosening the restrictions of your current incarceration will liberate a freedom of thought and actions, therefore your wisdom and knowledge in the field of geometry will be essential to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted May 29, 2006 Report Share Posted May 29, 2006 Quote:TDIPLC Not at STS unfortunately.... All my math is either in my head or if complicated a few hours with the old pen and paper... Geometry in truth should be as visible as a dyno.. Add every modification to the equation including Dampening/Coil Reaction then an image should be visible though the fog.... But new evolution like this dampening set-up invites constructive/destructive argument.. For Development between fields..... That's a good thing No doubt loosening the restrictions of your current incarceration will liberate a freedom of thought and actions, therefore your wisdom and knowledge in the field of geometry will be essential to us. Excellent opportunity for evolution.... Proof is a foundation....Any takers in wim or TDIPLC Please keep us apprised Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted May 29, 2006 Report Share Posted May 29, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted May 29, 2006 Report Share Posted May 29, 2006 Quote:TDIPLC Not at STS unfortunately.... All my math is either in my head or if complicated a few hours with the old pen and paper... Geometry in truth should be as visible as a dyno.. Add every modification to the equation including Dampening/Coil Reaction then an image should be visible though the fog.... But new evolution like this dampening set-up invites constructive/destructive argument.. For Development between fields..... That's a good thing No doubt loosening the restrictions of your current incarceration will liberate a freedom of thought and actions, therefore your wisdom and knowledge in the field of geometry will be essential to us. My patience, opportunity is waning fast....My release may be premature...... Although my final destination still is not final? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 I recall a certain prominent company inviting a target car to 'evolve' for commercial reasons. And a 'ME, ME, 'ME' plea from a wanting recipient.... This marriage has become very visible...... I would love to expand and assist your final stages mechanically for the race events, i assume you intend to advertise any 'sponsors' on the cars body, but unfortunately I lack the skill.... Maybe your near complete/ race ready example could fall under a similar wing..... who knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 This one is for Tony and any other suspension Genii. We are developing a new road orientated suspension kit for a car (secret squirrel at the moment) using 3 way adjustable dampers. We have seen truly amazing results on the track using this system (2 seconds per lap), and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this concept or has tried it? Thanks what about us mere mortals when you say three way adjustable dampers, do you mean height and damping adjustable, i am using the D2`s on the starlet, and they have an infinate amount of different adjustments, but are track orientated, which means although the can be adjusted for road use they are allways a bit stiff and therefore a bit uncomfortable for everyday road use presuming road orientated would have a more comfortable ride, but be less suitable for track use is it possible to have the best of both worlds !! Three way (or even better four way) adjustable damping is perfect for us mere mortals Let me explain (tapping chalk on blackboard) if I may? A two way adjustable damper allows you to adjust both bump (compression) and rebound (extension) rates to optimise handling to suit the application in normal use. That's fine, but what happens when the wheel hits a bump or pot hole? The car is sent completely off line because it's applying the same bump/rebound setting to a very fast change in cirumstances as is to it's normal operating conditions. What 3 and 4 way adjustable dampers allow you to do is to also set the bump and rebound for rapid reactions as well as for the normal slow reacting conditions. I'm not very good at explaining things so I hope that made sense Clearly, there is a layer of cost attached to this so it's not cheap, but anyone that has driven a car with good and bad suspension will know that it's money well spent. How's the testing going?.....The Monroe Sensatrac tried a similar concept some years ago and failed, i believe because the 'passive' damper was sealed (no adjustment) as a result '3 and 4' was denied compromising the handling during the rapid requirements... Adjustable at the '3 & 4' stage reads very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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