mark Posted July 31, 2007 Report Share Posted July 31, 2007 Hi This is my first post since I registered in May. Visited Tony yesterday (30/07/07) for a full geometry check on my LS400. The reason for the visit was to cure the excessive and expensive tyre wear on the car. Trust me, five pairs of front tyres in three years, that’s expensive. There was also a slight pull to one side. The geometry had been checked previously by Lexus and an independent garage but had failed to stop the wear on the tyres. Once on the ramps Tony pointed out the first problem, a leaking damper on the front offside. Not directly related to the cars geometry but may explain the wandering of the car at motorway speeds. Starting at the rear Tony set both wheels before moving forward and setting the fronts making allowances for the larger and wider wheels on the car. This is a short sentence to cover almost 2 hours work by Tony, who took the time to answer my questions, many of them no doubt asked a thousand times before, and explain the theory behind the settings he was making. Tony’s enthusiasm for vehicle geometry is obvious in his conversations and the care and pride he takes in his work. Many thanks Tony. As for the car, the slight pull has gone but it still wanders and is a bit twitchy on the motorway. New springs and dampers being fitted on Friday should cure that. Thanks also to the staff at Kipling Motorist Centre who fitted my new tyres. Their care and attention to detail when fitting tyres is rare in a world of ‘fast fit centres’ where quantity not quality counts. Unfortunately I will have to pass on fine tune due to distance but I will keep you up to date Tony. Thanks again Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted July 31, 2007 Report Share Posted July 31, 2007 Welcome to WIM mate, Tony is cetainly very helpful If you're changing the shocks/springs you will mess up all the changes Tony would have done. So it might be wise to go for that fine tune Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 Welcome to WIM mate, Tony is cetainly very helpful If you're changing the shocks/springs you will mess up all the changes Tony would have done. So it might be wise to go for that fine tune Welcome to wim Mark and thank you for the comprehensive, glowing report. E55EX_RACER the car is having OEM shocks and springs so with luck the calibration will remain the same... If not Mark has a hard copy Lexus can work to. The reason Mark will forgo the fine-tune is that he traveled from Edinburgh to wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-O Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 Welcome to WIM mate, Tony is cetainly very helpful If you're changing the shocks/springs you will mess up all the changes Tony would have done. So it might be wise to go for that fine tune Welcome to wim Mark and thank you for the comprehensive, glowing report. E55EX_RACER the car is having OEM shocks and springs so with luck the calibration will remain the same... If not Mark has a hard copy Lexus can work to. The reason Mark will forgo the fine-tune is that he traveled from Edinburgh to wim Bloody hell now thats a compliment and a half Tony !! Its worth it though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahmet Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 Edinburgh ?? blimey ....... that's dedication!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 Edinburgh ?? blimey ....... that's dedication!! I am humbled indeed by Marks commitment. He traveled down Sunday, stayed overnight in a hotel and i did my magic Monday.... Sadly due to traffic problems he had a miserable 10hr drive home. The good news was the issues with the car were very evident and i am very positive his tyre wear and handling problems are finally a thing of the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 That's some way to travel!! How much would that have cost in fuel!!! I always thought that doing any kind of suspension work would change the work that had been done, even if it was only mimimal. But as a garage is doing the work they're obliged to check the geometry afterwards aren't they? Especially a main dealer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 That's some way to travel!! How much would that have cost in fuel!!! I always thought that doing any kind of suspension work would change the work that had been done, even if it was only mimimal. But as a garage is doing the work they're obliged to check the geometry afterwards aren't they? Especially a main dealer... Plus he now has a hard copy from our print-out for them to return the chassis to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 That's some way to travel!! How much would that have cost in fuel!!! I always thought that doing any kind of suspension work would change the work that had been done, even if it was only mimimal. But as a garage is doing the work they're obliged to check the geometry afterwards aren't they? Especially a main dealer... Plus he now has a hard copy from our print-out for them to return the chassis to. Don't main dealers get funny about using settings that aren't their own though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 That's some way to travel!! How much would that have cost in fuel!!! I always thought that doing any kind of suspension work would change the work that had been done, even if it was only mimimal. But as a garage is doing the work they're obliged to check the geometry afterwards aren't they? Especially a main dealer... Plus he now has a hard copy from our print-out for them to return the chassis to. Don't main dealers get funny about using settings that aren't their own though? Yes they do object.. But in view of the catalogue of failures i feel they will oblige in this case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark Posted August 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 That's some way to travel!! How much would that have cost in fuel!!! I always thought that doing any kind of suspension work would change the work that had been done, even if it was only mimimal. But as a garage is doing the work they're obliged to check the geometry afterwards aren't they? Especially a main dealer... Plus he now has a hard copy from our print-out for them to return the chassis to. Don't main dealers get funny about using settings that aren't their own though? Yes they do object.. But in view of the catalogue of failures i feel they will oblige in this case Hi Off to Lexus first thing in the morning for the dampers and springs to be fitted and to be relieved of a large sum on money for the privilege. I look forward to an interesting discussion regarding the geometry figures I want the car set to. I will follow up tomorrow after they are fitted. I also have a question. Given the different makes of alignment machines in use and the different way they measure the same geometry angles, Autodata lists the following toe information for the LS400. Toe (N=negative, toe out) mm: 2.13±1.42 deg: 0°18’±12’ deg-1/100 0,30±0,20 This may allow for errors in the setting of correct figures. In addition to this are all machines capable of measuring to the same tolerance. The machine use to set the car up on Monday was sensitive that even a small amount of force applied to the wheel would cause the figures to change slightly. Finally there is the question of calibration, how and how often are these machines calibrated, it all very well receiving a printout showing all the correct figures but how can you be sure they are correct. If the machine is off calibration how would you or the operator know. Sorry for rambling on but my lack of knowledge on geometry became evident on my visit to Tony on Monday. In the past I have accepted the figures and the reasons presented to me (It’s the way you drive, it’s the speed bumps, it’s the type of tyre) but not anymore. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 All the toe positions are + positive. Unless the figures have a "N" before the positions then they are deemed as negative. The difference you can see in the camber positions depend on the increment of measurement.... example. Degree+minutes= 60' to each degree Decimal degrees+minutes= 100' to each degree Each 10' in a linear measurement= .9mm Imperial is not my language on the fly. Decimal is more accurate but much harder for the customer or indeed the technician to understand, particularly in the linear angles. Consequently most places use degrees+minutes and metric for the linear angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark Posted August 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 New dampers and springs fitted yesterday, no problems asking Lexus to reset the geometry to Tony’s figures after they were fitted. However I did not receive a printed report as there was a problem with the printer, so I can only take their word for it unless I get it checked a another garage. The car is not as bouncy as it was before but it’s still a bit nervous at motorway speeds, pulling slightly left and right especially on uneven surfaces. Not that we have many uneven road surfaces in this country, after all that’s what we pay road tax for, isn’t it? 500 mile on the new tyres, still no evidence of unusual tyre wear, But I will keep an eye on it and report back. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 New dampers and springs fitted yesterday, no problems asking Lexus to reset the geometry to Tony’s figures after they were fitted.However I did not receive a printed report as there was a problem with the printer, so I can only take their word for it unless I get it checked a another garage. The car is not as bouncy as it was before but it’s still a bit nervous at motorway speeds, pulling slightly left and right especially on uneven surfaces. Not that we have many uneven road surfaces in this country, after all that’s what we pay road tax for, isn’t it? 500 mile on the new tyres, still no evidence of unusual tyre wear, But I will keep an eye on it and report back. Mark Was you witness to the Geometry or was it the usual "we've" done it and a bill?.... I really hate gray areas from dealers "Angry head on" How come it's taken them so long to fix the printer?...... It only takes three days to get to the moon so i am sure in the modern age they could have addressed this by now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark Posted August 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 New dampers and springs fitted yesterday, no problems asking Lexus to reset the geometry to Tony’s figures after they were fitted.However I did not receive a printed report as there was a problem with the printer, so I can only take their word for it unless I get it checked a another garage. The car is not as bouncy as it was before but it’s still a bit nervous at motorway speeds, pulling slightly left and right especially on uneven surfaces. Not that we have many uneven road surfaces in this country, after all that’s what we pay road tax for, isn’t it? 500 mile on the new tyres, still no evidence of unusual tyre wear, But I will keep an eye on it and report back. Mark Was you witness to the Geometry or was it the usual "we've" done it and a bill?.... I really hate gray areas from dealers "Angry head on" How come it's taken them so long to fix the printer?...... It only takes three days to get to the moon so i am sure in the modern age they could have addressed this by now I'm afraid it was the usual "we've done it and a bill". As for the printer I can't say. But your right this is the forth time the alignment has been done at Lexus and I have only received one report. When the car was booked in and I asked for a printed report it was " no problem" it was only when i collected the car that i was told of the printer problem. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 New dampers and springs fitted yesterday, no problems asking Lexus to reset the geometry to Tony’s figures after they were fitted.However I did not receive a printed report as there was a problem with the printer, so I can only take their word for it unless I get it checked a another garage. The car is not as bouncy as it was before but it’s still a bit nervous at motorway speeds, pulling slightly left and right especially on uneven surfaces. Not that we have many uneven road surfaces in this country, after all that’s what we pay road tax for, isn’t it? 500 mile on the new tyres, still no evidence of unusual tyre wear, But I will keep an eye on it and report back. Mark Was you witness to the Geometry or was it the usual "we've" done it and a bill?.... I really hate gray areas from dealers "Angry head on" How come it's taken them so long to fix the printer?...... It only takes three days to get to the moon so i am sure in the modern age they could have addressed this by now I'm afraid it was the usual "we've done it and a bill". As for the printer I can't say. But your right this is the forth time the alignment has been done at Lexus and I have only received one report. When the car was booked in and I asked for a printed report it was " no problem" it was only when i collected the car that i was told of the printer problem. Mark In view of the distance you traveled Mark i spent many an hour researching the safest calibration possible for your car.... I had one chance to get it absolutely right. Without the evidence from the dealer any input i make toward the handling developments is without structure.. Mate i advise this.... Tell them you need a report "where, how" is their problem. You should have been given evidence of the calibration. Please can you pursue this? To rub salt..... A printer costs £30? how much did you pay them for the suspension installation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark Posted August 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 New dampers and springs fitted yesterday, no problems asking Lexus to reset the geometry to Tony’s figures after they were fitted.However I did not receive a printed report as there was a problem with the printer, so I can only take their word for it unless I get it checked a another garage. The car is not as bouncy as it was before but it’s still a bit nervous at motorway speeds, pulling slightly left and right especially on uneven surfaces. Not that we have many uneven road surfaces in this country, after all that’s what we pay road tax for, isn’t it? 500 mile on the new tyres, still no evidence of unusual tyre wear, But I will keep an eye on it and report back. Mark Was you witness to the Geometry or was it the usual "we've" done it and a bill?.... I really hate gray areas from dealers "Angry head on" How come it's taken them so long to fix the printer?...... It only takes three days to get to the moon so i am sure in the modern age they could have addressed this by now I'm afraid it was the usual "we've done it and a bill". As for the printer I can't say. But your right this is the forth time the alignment has been done at Lexus and I have only received one report. When the car was booked in and I asked for a printed report it was " no problem" it was only when i collected the car that i was told of the printer problem. Mark In view of the distance you traveled Mark i spent many an hour researching the safest calibration possible for your car.... I had one chance to get it absolutely right. Without the evidence from the dealer any input i make toward the handling developments is without structure.. Mate i advise this.... Tell them you need a report "where, how" is their problem. You should have been given evidence of the calibration. Please can you pursue this? To rub salt..... A printer costs £30? how much did you pay them for the suspension installation I will pursue this with Lexus on Monday. As you say you do need evidence, I will be on their door eight O’clock Monday morning. As for the salt...... you are correct, a piece of paper with some numbers on is not a lot to ask when you have just parted with thick end of £600. I will let you know the outcome and the geometry figures on Monday, even if I have to copy them off the alignment machines monitor. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 Go for it Mark...... How impressed would you have been if i said to you after a 800 mile+ trip to wim i couldn't give you a printout.... I assume reasonably p**sed off. And rightly so. This Lexus dealer has caused you much distress in the past.... Nuff is enough, time they get off the pot by whatever means. PM me their number and i will tell them for you!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark Posted August 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 Hi, Sorry for the delay in replying, I had the geometry rechecked on Thursday but this is the first time I have had to properly sit down and reply. I really should have better things to do on a Saturday night. After a long wait, three test drives and two alignment checks I finally have geometry report. I haven’t figured out how to upload yet so the final figures are below. All the values are in decimal degrees. Front Caster Left 6.4° Right 6.4° Camber Left 0.3° Right 0.3° Toe Left 0.05° Right 0.05° Rear Camber Left -0.8° Right -0.8° Toe Left 0.1° Right 0.1° Thrust angle -0.0° Your report listed the front toe as right 0.5mm, left 0.4mm and the rear as right 0.7mm, left 0.8mm. Are figures of 0.05° and 0.1° equivalent to these? I’m not sure on how to work it out correctly. There are no final values listed for SAI, Included angle, Setback or toe out on turns. The report list Min and Max figures but shows N/M in the final value column. This is the same as the previous report which I had with me when the car was setup. The machine used appears to be older the one used by yourself, no fancy graphics only a text readout on screen, and it only appears to be accurate to ± 1/10 of a degree on some angles going by the printout. Any thoughts or comments as usual would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Looks good to me Mark. They have kept the Geometry symmetrical and not used the "stock" camber positions How is it handling now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark Posted August 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Looks good to me Mark. They have kept the Geometry symmetrical and not used the "stock" camber positions How is it handling now? A huge improvement, the car is still a bit on the bouncy/floaty side but it sits on the road a lot better with no pulling to one side over bumps. Tyre wear still OK but only 800 mile on them at the moment. I will keep an eye on them and report back later. many thanks for you help and advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Looks good to me Mark. They have kept the Geometry symmetrical and not used the "stock" camber positions How is it handling now? A huge improvement, the car is still a bit on the bouncy/floaty side but it sits on the road a lot better with no pulling to one side over bumps. Tyre wear still OK but only 800 mile on them at the moment. I will keep an eye on them and report back later. many thanks for you help and advice. Please keep us apprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.