480ES Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Sorry for the long post. I'm looking to get my FWD 480(1.7 NA Manual) so that it feels more stable at speed and possibly with more weighty feel to the steering (maybe down to the Vari PS itself here tho)before I possibly upgrade my suspension. It's currently on standard shocks and springs front and back and I'm wanting to have a good baseline to work from to know if there are any improvements over the original suspension properly setup. I knew the front toe settings were out at the very least and took it to a local shop for a check which confirmed that the N/S front was way off the mark and that the O/S front was a little out (annoyingly they didn't leave the printout in the car as I was told they would) but I believe it was 0.5 out on N/S and 0.1 or less out on the O/S think it was degrees they were using a V3D machine afaik) When I asked about the rears they said they looked OK (am pretty sure at least one came up either red or very close to one of the max/min tolerances and the other was the other way but not as far) When I asked about the Camber and Castor and if they thought anything might be bent/worn out they basically said they wouldn't know without checking but it looked OK from the numbers. (It was towards the end of a saturday n I think the guy was in clocking off mode not a good start I know) Some issues I was having was a lack of mid corner grip and seriously lacking traction on exiting a corner with any, even gentle applications of the throttle the tyres were simply lighting up. Also on straight line acceleration I had serious traction issues especially as soon as it became remotely damp. I've had new tyres front and back and actually tried a different make on the fronts again to see if it's any better. (Goodyear and Goodride I think) Also I have put new calipers on as th I loosened the N/S TRE and adjusted it to near dead on straight and the car hung on much better in the corners and seemed to have a lot better traction and good feedback from the wheel. However, after getting the O/S loosened and both set to within spec and with equal threads both sides and steering wheel straight, the weighting of the steering seems too light with less feel. General traction and cornering grip seem reduced again although not nearly as badly as before. But it now seems to get more bump steer and feels less stable. Really my questions are: What are the most likely causes of these symptoms? Before getting it all rechecked and adjusted, I'd like an idea of what would be good settings to take with me to get them to aim for to minimise my current issues. (I'd prefer a more relaxed, stable drive than outright cornering performance.) Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 How adjustable have you made the chassis?..... do we have f/r camber and castor? Do you have stock roll bars, if not are they adjustable? I'm surprised you notice different handling with such small changes in toe since the lateral effect is absorbed in the tyres sidewall and it certainly won't generate bump-steer unless the roll centres are way off or the suspensions collapsing during transition. All leads back to "how adjustable is the chassis?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIH Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Which is the 480 ? The flippy headlight model with the renault engine ? If so nice cool retro-ish ride you got there! Edit: whoops he beat me to it! What suspension upgrades did you have inmind ? I assume something along the lines of lowered & stiffened; the geo could be customised to make the best of the new kit so bear that inmind though it depends what you intend to use the car for ie; road/fast-road/track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Which is the 480 ? The flippy headlight model with the renault engine ? If so nice cool retro-ish ride you got there!Edit: whoops he beat me to it! I used to have a white 480 Turbo...right little pocket rocket even though it only had 120 bhp. It didn't weigh that much as a lot of the body panels were made of some kind of resin, but what was metal fell victim of the rust bug, especially around the windscreen. Looked like this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
480ES Posted February 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Yep it's the flippy headlight one just like the one Tango has pictured but without the turbo. Currently it is all completely stock. AFAIK there's no f/r castor adjustment although with the front camber there is apparently slight adjustment possible up to 1 degree negative, if you undo all the bolts and nuts and retighten them when the camber is set. Roll bars are also stock. My next job is to flush the P/S system as it's deffinately overdue one, to see if this makes any difference to the feel and response (It has variable assistance so am wondering if there might be something that's not right there causing it to provide full assistance at speed but not always. I'm intending to use the car only for road use as my main long distance cruiser but hopefully with the ability to put a smile on my face on the A/B roads and country lanes. As for upgrading, I'm hoping to go for minimal lowering, (somewhere between stock and max of -15mm with a little extra stiffness as it seems the normal lowering of 30-40mm or 55mm if going for PI springs as they are known to sag to this point rather soon after fitment, becomes just too firm and uncomfortable.) as I'd like to retain as much comfort as possible but gain some additional straight line stability/minimise effects of bumps and wind on direction and improve the handling a little. I also want to make as few insurance premium affecting changes as possible and retain the good MPG figures I'm seeing. Also, I have quite a lot of spares including suspension parts taken from a car that had a lot reconditioned underneath just before it was stripped and scrapped. So if there are any bits that might be worth swapping/adjusting/modding and trying out, that could be one way to go if anyone has suggestions. How adjustable have you made the chassis?..... do we have f/r camber and castor? Do you have stock roll bars, if not are they adjustable? I'm surprised you notice different handling with such small changes in toe since the lateral effect is absorbed in the tyres sidewall and it certainly won't generate bump-steer unless the roll centres are way off or the suspensions collapsing during transition. All leads back to "how adjustable is the chassis?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Stock, other than front toe the chassis is fixed.... To advance on the handling you need to make the chassis adjustable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIH Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Might be worth refreshing bushes and what not before lowering as all that slop may be making it a little wallowly. 'Common on S12s such as mine, I'm told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
480ES Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 As an update, I had the tracking checked and adjusted and have given the figures from the report below.(please note toe at front was quite out at the start mainly due to making sure that both front TRE were loosened off and rods turned to make sure they would adjust ok before taking it to the tracking garage rather than find a seized one need replacing or anything braking when the tracking was done) None of the secondary angles were given in the report apart from Setback and Track Width Diff both of -5mm Front and 3mm Rear. What handling traits should I expect from these results? (stability at speed/turn in on cornering both directions/mid corner and exit traits) It seems to have gained a pull to the left which is tiring on long journeys (is this expected from results below, I'm assuming it's due to the extra -ve camber on the LF in comparrison to the RF..so would correcting this(I'm working on the basis of small adjustment of undoing top bolts, adjusting and retightening giving upto -1deg) help eliminate it without messing up the toe settings? Or should I take it back to the tracking place and have them try and eliminate the pull through toe settings? Thanks in advance, Leon Initial Min Max Final Front Left Camber -1deg17' -1deg24' 0deg36' -1deg17' Toe 0deg10' 0deg00' 0deg05' 0deg04' Front Right Camber -0deg19' -1deg24' 0deg36' -0deg18' Toe 0deg20' 0deg00' 0deg05' 0deg04' Front Total Toe 0deg30' 0deg00' 0deg10' 0deg07' Rear Left Camber -1deg08' - - -1deg08' Toe 0deg20' 0deg05' 0deg17' 0deg20' Rear Right Camber -1deg02' - - -1deg02' Toe 0deg08' 0deg00' 0deg05' 0deg08' Rear Total Toe 0deg28' 0deg10' 0deg34' 0deg28' Thrust Angle 0deg06' - - 0deg06' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Sorry but that's a poor Geometry...... They should have measured the secondary angles (castor-kpi) and so on. The camber issues on the front would make the car pull right so there's other issues there. It's quite possible that the camber and castor (once measured) can be optimised by moving the subframe, so it's not end of days yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
480ES Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Thanks for the quick response. So a couple of questions really; Should I take it back and request they take the figures for all the secondary angles etc? (should they not have done this anyway?) Should I expect that they would go any further than simply adjusting the toe on the front to counter the pull? Does anyone know of a good place in the North East (anywhere between teesside and newcastle really is viable) that I can take it to that would be prepared to make a proper, complete job of the alignment to get all settings correct or at least much closer rather than leaving it as it is for a reasonable price? (what should I expect to pay?) I would really like to find a good place as I have a kit car that will need setting up and also was intending on doing some restoration/possible upgrading on the 480 including possibly new suspension and replacing the subframe with a spare good condition one I have, but obviously bolting it in the same place as the current one will most likely cause my geo to be out as it currently is. I'm hoping to get this sorted as soon as I possible then straight onto the MOT which is due soon. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 One thing at a time.... They should have measured the entire Geometry (you paid for that) from that report we could have advised you accordingly but we can't. Have them complete what was requested, then with a full report this entire thread will change from fiction to fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.