Ric_Bragoli Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 After a little searching and posting a Q. on the fiat forum i was directed to this great site. I was having my wheels aligned at Chemix in wednesfield and have just had the car back. The guy who looked over my car was Neil if that helps at all? Anyway the car went in with a very noticable pull to the left although there is no tyre wear on either tyre and they seem to have been on there a while (i only picked the car up yesterday). Neil said that you can only adjust the toe and camber i think on the fiat and below are the before and after measurements: BEFORE: nsf camber osf camber -0.04 -0.58 caster 2.43 2.38 toe -0.08 -0.13 total toe -0.22 steer ahead 0.03 nsr camber osr camber -0.57 -1.12 toe 0.04 0.08 total toe 0.12 thrust angle -0.02 AFTER: nsf camber osf camber -0.01 -1.02 caster 2.43 2.38 toe 0.08 0.10 total toe 0.18 steer ahead -0.01 nsr camber osr camber -0.52 -1.11 toe 0.03 0.07 total toe 0.10 thrust angle -0.02 Sorry if its a bit hard to read The car still pulls slightly to the left although dosent feel as bad and Neil said that i wont be able to get it right? is that true? The tyre pressures are ok as he had to check them for the alignment anyway. Any help would be appreciated :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Hello welcome to wim. Chemix are wrong.... The pull left is due to the OSF Camber 'push' The front values of -.4' and -58' represent an increased conical compressive force from the OSF, in simple terms the diameter of the OSF inner sidewall is smaller than the outer enabling the tyre to roll inwards. Chemix have suffered 'force blindness' because the actual position for the Camber is -40' +-30' so a reading of -10' to 1degree 20' on the one side would still be within parameters, this is fine assuming the partner wheel has the same positions/forces which clearly it doesn't. wim's 'Trusted Centres' are displayed for people to have a vetted company near to your location, unfortunately they are not franchised so a basis of exemplary workmanship time and again forms our relationship, if thing go wrong wim expects some jumping through hoops..... Also the Camber on the car is not naturally adjustable.... Can you display the SJI AKA KPI positions for the NSF and OSF for us to Analise... and would you like wim to address this issue with Chemix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric_Bragoli Posted June 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Hi Tony, Many thanks for your reply; you seem to explain it better than Neil did to me as I was reading info on what to look for before I went back to the garage. The service was very professional there although Neil did say the tyres weren’t in very good condition to which i was surprised as i personally thought there was more than enough tread left on them (4-5mm), kind of felt like he was trying to flog me two new tyres. Anyway not to fussed about that, I’d rather get my car sorted because I’m sure it didn’t come out of the factory with a slight left pull (Neil also said that will always happen because of the road layouts which i understand can put wear on the tyres etc), but if you've identified that its from the angles in the setup then i more than take your word for it. Unfortunately I don’t have any other angles on the two sheets that i was given, they were very "pretty" but only have the ones I've given in the previous post. I can scan them in and e-mail them over for your viewing. Chemix might have it on file as they're electronic i think?? You should set up a paypal donation service because I’d sort you a few quid for your advice and help. If I can get the car sorted by taking it back to Chemix with any words of advice from your kind self it would be greatly appreciated. Forgot to mention that I'd have come down watford to see you as you seem to know how to sort my car which may be an option if i cant get it sorted this end..i'll definatly be spreading the word of your knowledge!! Forgot to mention, I'd have come down to see you in Watford as from what i've read you know how to sort problems others cant. I'll definatly be putting in a good word to everyone who's got a problem and some of the guys on the fiat forum already know about your good work!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Hi Tony, Many thanks for your reply; you seem to explain it better than Neil did to me as I was reading info on what to look for before I went back to the garage. The service was very professional there although Neil did say the tyres weren’t in very good condition to which i was surprised as i personally thought there was more than enough tread left on them (4-5mm), kind of felt like he was trying to flog me two new tyres. Anyway not to fussed about that, I’d rather get my car sorted because I’m sure it didn’t come out of the factory with a slight left pull (Neil also said that will always happen because of the road layouts which i understand can put wear on the tyres etc), but if you've identified that its from the angles in the setup then i more than take your word for it. Unfortunately I don’t have any other angles on the two sheets that i was given, they were very "pretty" but only have the ones I've given in the previous post. I can scan them in and e-mail them over for your viewing. Chemix might have it on file as they're electronic i think?? You should set up a paypal donation service because I’d sort you a few quid for your advice and help. If I can get the car sorted by taking it back to Chemix with any words of advice from your kind self it would be greatly appreciated. All cars have an 'eventual' drift due to the road crown... but no pull!.. Be wise with Camber tyre wear since it's very deep inside so you will need to make deliberate efforts to view the wear. As you can see only about 10% of the tread area is involved and one incorrect Camber will wear both front tyres in different increments. Most Geometry reports have two print versions... 1:- Dumb customers copy 2:- Technicians copy Most centres only offer the Dumb version.... Incidentally the terminology 'Dumb + Tech' is Global not wim's. Please email me the print out and all relevant information Name/Date/ invoice# and a contact # . Tomorrow i will check for aftermarket Camber adjusters for you so we can resolve this pull! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorps Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 I love this site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 I love this site ...... Why what do you like the best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorps Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 I love this site ...... Why what do you like the best? To know somebody (Mr Bones) who will pass on your knowledge and your insatiable appetite for helping others in need.......its refreshing to know there are people out there who do care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 I love this site ...... Why what do you like the best? To know somebody (Mr Bones) who will pass on your knowledge and your insatiable appetite for helping others in need.......its refreshing to know there are people out there who do care. £50 in post ..... Thanks Pete, this Geometry lark is way bigger than me in customer numbers.. my ambition is to help the domestic trauma market (the biggest distress) then support the novice track/1/4/ drift market enabling open discussion albeit right or wrong, wim is not scared to be wrong that's how we all learn. Freedom to open quality non hostile debate seems missing in most forums... and i feel the novice is scared to open banter in case of a 'cut down'.... this would never happen in wim! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric_Bragoli Posted June 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Sorry dont know why my comments posted twice in the same reply, should have been two seperate ones. Again, sorry but is that £50 for me Tony to resolve the camber issues? I'll scan and e-mail them in asap. Many thanks R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Sorry dont know why my comments posted twice in the same reply, should have been two seperate ones. Again, sorry but is that £50 for me Tony to resolve the camber issues? I'll scan and e-mail them in asap. Many thanks R Don't worry about the double post we will sort that later.... Depending on the type of suspension the car has the adjuster should only cost about £25.. this i will check for you. Then i will deal with Chemix and establish the solution in advance of your return Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric_Bragoli Posted June 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Doh...just got what your meant by the £50...slow off the mark eh.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Doh...just got what your meant by the £50...slow off the mark eh.. Can be heavy reading here sometimes mate you need to stay alert .... The Chemix issue is in hand.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 1, 2006 Report Share Posted July 1, 2006 Ric..... Still i await the reply from Chemix, i have to assume my path within their company is closed weekends. The cars data is missing on my 06 up-load so relevant information regarding the 'EZ' adjusters is not available to me in diameter....Once i have the relevant information from Chemix i will send you the adjuster bolts 'FREE' wim stands by it's associated centres this you supported.... The least i can do is make available the tools to correct the problem..... To accelerate things do you know if the front struts have two pintch bolts at the hub? it will look like this If yes then i will send you these.... Once i know the diameter of the original bolt?........To be continued:- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric_Bragoli Posted July 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2006 Tony you are a top bloke! The suspension looks exactly as per the diagram you posted with the two bolts, they look quite meaty ones like 14mm heads on them? I could try with a spanner to get the head size but it might not mean much for the internal diameter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 1, 2006 Report Share Posted July 1, 2006 Tony you are a top bloke! The suspension looks exactly as per the diagram you posted with the two bolts, they look quite meaty ones like 14mm heads on them? I could try with a spanner to get the head size but it might not mean much for the internal diameter. Excellent.....If you remove the nut then measure the diameter of the bolts shaft then we are on a winner... Once done we can conclude this, then i will send you the bolts and arrange things for you at Chemix..... Understand there will be a charge by them to install... (not much) but the adjusters allow 100% resolve regarding the issues you have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric_Bragoli Posted July 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2006 Sounds good to me..I'll have to do the bolt in the morning and let you know as i've been working on the car all day and just got ready to go out for a swift half. Cheers once again ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric_Bragoli Posted July 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Well after playing with the bolt for about an hour i decided i couldnt get it off...I measured the washer which fitted snug around the screw thread at the one end which i managed to get off and it was 12mm - does that sound about right? In the pic you've shown of the EZ adjusters there's a part of the bolt which has no thread but i cant get to that part on the bolt I've undone..can you work out which bolts i need from the measurement i've given you or do you need another measurement of the non threaded section of the bolt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Well after playing with the bolt for about an hour i decided i couldnt get it off...I measured the washer which fitted snug around the screw thread at the one end which i managed to get off and it was 12mm - does that sound about right? In the pic you've shown of the EZ adjusters there's a part of the bolt which has no thread but i cant get to that part on the bolt I've undone..can you work out which bolts i need from the measurement i've given you or do you need another measurement of the non threaded section of the bolt? 12mm sounds about right.... for conformation the diameter of any exposed thread outside of the lock nut would be fine to measure... The EZ bolt scale is 10-12-14- and so on, so be within the 2mm appendix... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric_Bragoli Posted July 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 Hi Tony, do you need my postal address or were you thinking of sending the parts over to chemix? Many thanks Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 Hi Tony, do you need my postal address or were you thinking of sending the parts over to chemix? Many thanks Ric All i need is your details pm'd to me and i will send the necercery adjusters.... in the mean Chemix need to respond to the fitting.... this i will deal with in advance of your return to the centre in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric_Bragoli Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I have a question which I'm sure you'll be able to answer... If i lower the car by 35mm is there a way in which the camber correction angle needed can be calculated? I'm just wondering as im tempted to lower the car but cant be bothered if its going to mess up the camber angles beyond what the adjustment bolts can deal with...just a thought :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 I have a question which I'm sure you'll be able to answer... If i lower the car by 35mm is there a way in which the camber correction angle needed can be calculated? I'm just wondering as im tempted to lower the car but cant be bothered if its going to mess up the camber angles beyond what the adjustment bolts can deal with...just a thought :-) When a car is lowered the active camber curve is reduced allowing a more generous static position. the EZ adjusters own a 1 degree 45 +- range, this is well within your requirements. Note to Ric: Answer your phone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric_Bragoli Posted July 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 sorry Tony, take it you've tried calling? My phones on silent in the office during the day...Was your number the 01442? I've had a few people call me today on the mobile who's numbers i didnt recognise as im trying to sort a place to live in notts and i've been leaving msg's with agents left right and centre... sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 I have a question which I'm sure you'll be able to answer... If i lower the car by 35mm is there a way in which the camber correction angle needed can be calculated? I'm just wondering as im tempted to lower the car but cant be bothered if its going to mess up the camber angles beyond what the adjustment bolts can deal with...just a thought :-) Bump How are things now?.... Did the Geom go to plan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric_Bragoli Posted August 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 I have a question which I'm sure you'll be able to answer... If i lower the car by 35mm is there a way in which the camber correction angle needed can be calculated? I'm just wondering as im tempted to lower the car but cant be bothered if its going to mess up the camber angles beyond what the adjustment bolts can deal with...just a thought :-) Bump How are things now?.... Did the Geom go to plan Well i havent had it done as yet...had a complete pain with ordering the wheel spacers etc so have had to revert back to the original 10mm plan. I've got to order a couple of seals for the hub and track rod end ball joints and then i can get it aligned...someone mentioned that i couldnt just buy the seals (although a company i spoke to said i could), so im waiting to change them otherwise i need a new track rod end and that would mean having the geom done again..they're all sorted though now and i'm just waiting for time to book the car into the garage..hopefully in the next week..i'll be in touch as soon as i know when i can book it in :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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