Daaave Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 Hi Tony / everyone, I have been recommended by a number of people to pay you a visit to have a chat about my 350z, but you're a bit far away (I'm just outside Birmingham). So perhaps you can give me a bit of advice on here and recommend someone good near me? I've noticed the car feel a bit twitchy at the rear when I'm going over roadwork repairs and large sections of paint on the road but only when grip is a lower in the rain. The tarmac generally has to be the sort you get in small transverse strips with either very little or no visible aggregate at the surface so it's really just shiny tar. I can be driving in a perfectly straight line on a flat smooth road and as I drive over these strips at >50mph in heavy rain the car twitches enough for it to feel like my body is moving in the seat in response. This doesn't feel particularly fun and in the back of my mind I'm wondering about the day the rear aquaplanes and the last and first bit of grip it has during the 'flight' will be with some form of sideways force... I can post up the full details of the last geometry check I had done, the problem though was that my car is sitting slightly lower than standard (Eibach springs) and is on the optional 19" rims - both of which weren't an option as default settings on the geometry machine to compare with. So I don't know if I can trust the 'default' suggested settings on the print-out...? My front camber is ~1°30' on both sides, the rear is ~2°40' on both sides (both slightly over the suggested spec on the print-out). The front toe is ~0.2 on both sides, the rear is ~1.8 on both sides (front within spec, rear 1-1.5 over spec). Last two times I've changed the rear tyres they have been evenly worn, I'd guess at no more than ~1mm difference across the width, with the more worn section being on the inside (the tyres are 275/35/19). From my noddy understanding, if the rear tyres have a positive toe then this is toe out and will help when cornering (not sure how?) but straight line stability will be reduced. Am I correct? I don't track the car so I'm not that bothered about eking out every last drip of cornering performance and I'm not keen on the wiggle in the wet so should I have the rear toe dropped back to the within spec settings (0.1 - 0.5)? I've also noticed Any advice appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 Hello Dave I don't like those calibration positions what so ever.... -2 degrees 40' camber is seriously deforming the tyre side wall, you add some aerodynamics and the camber curve (on bump) the we could be talking 3 degrees. Additionally toe out is a no.... reason being you have a conically deformed tyre that's laterally wound on the inner sidewall, off bump the opposing tyre will momentarily steer the rear. Does your printout show any symmetry measurements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaave Posted October 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Hello Dave I don't like those calibration positions what so ever.... -2 degrees 40' camber is seriously deforming the tyre side wall, you add some aerodynamics and the camber curve (on bump) the we could be talking 3 degrees. Additionally toe out is a no.... reason being you have a conically deformed tyre that's laterally wound on the inner sidewall, off bump the opposing tyre will momentarily steer the rear. Does your printout show any symmetry measurements? Hi Tony, I think I've mislead you slightly. When I used the ~ sign I meant 'roughly', it wasn't supposed to look like a - minus sign. None of the measurements were minus. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 I would hope the cambers are minus.... Anyway even if they are roughly 2 degrees 40' then it's still incredibly deep over stock. What happened between the time when the handling was ok and now?...... was it a Geo or new suspension or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaave Posted October 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 I would hope the cambers are minus.... Anyway even if they are roughly 2 degrees 40' then it's still incredibly deep over stock. What happened between the time when the handling was ok and now?...... was it a Geo or new suspension or whatever. Er, I've looked properly again at the report and I've made a right hash of this... So rather than keep trying to explain it and get it wrong, here's a scanned copy of the report (names removed as I don't want to be accused of libel!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Dave did you request this set up?.... reason i ask is this 1: The cambers are far removed from OEM 2: The car will push with those front/ rear disparities Additionally the primary measurements are incomplete and the secondary angles are missing?..... also concerning is the front/ rear set backs, this does suggest there are issues with the secondary angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaave Posted October 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Dave did you request this set up?.... reason i ask is this 1: The cambers are far removed from OEM 2: The car will push with those front/ rear disparities Additionally the primary measurements are incomplete and the secondary angles are missing?..... also concerning is the front/ rear set backs, this does suggest there are issues with the secondary angles. I didn't request anything from them. Just a new set of boots and whilst we were at it I thought an alignment check would be money well spent. They altered the front toe and from memory suggested that the camber wasn't that far out and was probably due to the lower ride height - so no problem. I didn't really know what the secondary angles bit of the print out meant and hence wasn't concerned, until now... Sounds like I need to get this sorted ASAP. Can you recommend anyone with your sort of enthusiasm and knowledge in the vicinity of Birmingham or Derby? Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 If a car is lowered you can afford a more aggressive camber since there's less gains dynamically but not to the degree you have them. Chassis dynamics ultimately designs what's going on at the tyres contact patch, the figures are forces so to speak so manipulating the forces allows a change in the handling characteristics but to do this you need the entire picture. The missing fields on your printout are the secondary angles, most of them are adjustable or at least influenced on your car so they are an absolute must if the handling needs to be secured. To find a centre near you i suggest you enter your postcode here> http://www.alignmycar.co.uk/ every centre listed uses the expensive Hunter machine so i would expect them to be clued up regarding chassis calibration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaave Posted October 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 If a car is lowered you can afford a more aggressive camber since there's less gains dynamically but not to the degree you have them. Chassis dynamics ultimately designs what's going on at the tyres contact patch, the figures are forces so to speak so manipulating the forces allows a change in the handling characteristics but to do this you need the entire picture. The missing fields on your printout are the secondary angles, most of them are adjustable or at least influenced on your car so they are an absolute must if the handling needs to be secured. To find a centre near you i suggest you enter your postcode here> http://www.alignmycar.co.uk/ every centre listed uses the expensive Hunter machine so i would expect them to be clued up regarding chassis calibration. Thanks Tony. I'll go to a local specialist as suggested and see how I get on, I'll post the results back when I do. So just so I understand correctly... Will the Hunter systems use a base default setup to compare to, and if so will it matter that I'm on a different wheel size and ride height? I'm guessing these systems will compensate? I just want to go to a place armed with a bit of knowledge on how to interpret the print out, as last time I was led to believe the red bits weren't an issue. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 I use the Hunter DSP811 with the "modified car" software and this does take all the modifications into account "but" it's still down to the operator to read and understand the information. Most places use the DPS600 which is a superb machine but allows the operator to take short cuts in data acquisition.... so at worst i expect them to measure the entire Geometry including the castor and SAI angles and at worst settle for the OEM template regarding the destination. Even this is as far as they can go it's far better than what you have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaave Posted November 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 I use the Hunter DSP811 with the "modified car" software and this does take all the modifications into account "but" it's still down to the operator to read and understand the information. Most places use the DPS600 which is a superb machine but allows the operator to take short cuts in data acquisition.... so at worst i expect them to measure the entire Geometry including the castor and SAI angles and at worst settle for the OEM template regarding the destination. Even this is as far as they can go it's far better than what you have now. I have really struggled to find anyone that has a clue about secondary angles, most places with Hunter systems that I called said that they would check camber, castor and toe only. Some said they could check other things but had never tried and were willing to give it a go - that didn't give me much confidence either as they probably wouldn't understand what they were doing. Anyway, so I took the car to one of the most local places with a Hunter DPS600 and got the primary angles sorted as much as was possible. But it's still not perfect - see pic: The rear camber was taken as far as possible (see pic), the guy said that a new set of bushes (see pic) might help to bring it back further. The front camber isn't adjustable he says... What do you reckon Tony? Cheers. After camber adjustment (note shiny bit where it was before). The bush that he suggested changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 What is wrong with these people!!!...... The adjuster cam has been moved from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock, both positions are neutral..... The adjustment ledges are the lobes either side at 3 and 9 o'clock, effectively none of the adjustment has been used. As for the bushings.... forget it. I can't remember if the fronts adjustable, i'll have to check the machine, in truth i wouldn't be of concern if the rear was set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaave Posted November 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 What is wrong with these people!!!...... The adjuster cam has been moved from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock, both positions are neutral..... The adjustment ledges are the lobes either side at 3 and 9 o'clock, effectively none of the adjustment has been used. As for the bushings.... forget it. I can't remember if the fronts adjustable, i'll have to check the machine, in truth i wouldn't be of concern if the rear was set. :angry: Hmmm, money not well spent methinks... I hate having to complain about anything, depending on the nature of the person you deal with you'll either get an ultra defensive response and then you'll not want your pride and joy anywhere near them, or you might be extremely lucky and get a positive response - but I never hold out much hope. Perhaps I should have just spent the money on the fuel to get to WIM eh? :angry: Thing is though Tony, to turn the adjuster from the original position to the final position, would the guy not have had to turn the adjuster past the lobes and then surely he would have seen it on screen? As I pottered about whilst he was doing the work I don't remember ever seeing the camber change much, it certainly didn't go green. Just to confirm, here's what he pointed out: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 They both adjust camber and toe so their positions need to be optimized, the odds on doing this with one adjuster is unthinkable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-O Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 Hi Daaave, Looks like you aren't having much luck with the alignment. Speaking as an existing and future customer of Tony's - i would say you will save money in the long run sorting this issue if you make a day of it and drive down and let Tony work his magic on it. As he said before he has the best of the best in terms of equipment, and has the knowledge and enthusiasm to use it in anger (as do the rest of his guys) If you look around the forum you will see people come from all over the place - because they know he is the best. I dont think i could trust anyone else with my car now to be Honest - particularly as the normal settings/rules dont apply. Thats when the skill comes in. But whatever you decide hope you get it sorted ! I'll keep an eye on the thread :angry: Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIH Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 Isn't the Z33 one of those cars where the factory settings aren't so clever ? Incidentally, I use a '600 too and, pre-wim, had never heard of seconday angles..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 Isn't the Z33 one of those cars where the factory settings aren't so clever ? Incidentally, I use a '600 too and, pre-wim, had never heard of seconday angles..... Your on the sparks aren't you!! The 350z had an evolutionary Geometry/ chassis calibration, unlike most manafatures who "rightly so" use past successful proven calibration positions plus a tweak or two. The Z's initial chassis problems was the coil and oil, they really got this wrong!!..... wim was called as an arbitrator to deal with the customers complaints and we proved the damper rebound was incorrect. Don't get me wrong wim does not have the power to challenge Honda but our findings were corrected and some new Geometric positions followed that supported that correction? A kind of "air crash investigation". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIH Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 So were new positions offically adopted ? I suppose the Z33 entry on my database (if there even is one), not to mention the target figures Daaave posted, are originals ? On that point, looking at that report, do we think the operator put Toe "spot on" but found they had run out of adjustment for camber ie; tried to treat the two angles as two different entites ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 They dealt with the suspension issue and changed the front total toe to +2mm or + 18'. I think you are correct about the way the operator set the chassis.... as far as i can see both cams are set neutral? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaave Posted November 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 Hi Daaave, Looks like you aren't having much luck with the alignment. Speaking as an existing and future customer of Tony's - i would say you will save money in the long run sorting this issue if you make a day of it and drive down and let Tony work his magic on it. As he said before he has the best of the best in terms of equipment, and has the knowledge and enthusiasm to use it in anger (as do the rest of his guys) If you look around the forum you will see people come from all over the place - because they know he is the best. I dont think i could trust anyone else with my car now to be Honest - particularly as the normal settings/rules dont apply. Thats when the skill comes in. But whatever you decide hope you get it sorted ! I'll keep an eye on the thread Cheers Steve I think you're right. Confidence is everything, and the last bloke who tried to sort it didn't inspire much confidence whereas Tony obviously knows a thing or two... They dealt with the suspension issue and changed the front total toe to +2mm or + 18'. I think you are correct about the way the operator set the chassis.... as far as i can see both cams are set neutral? So the settings on this machine are the originals pre-customer complaints? I'm wondering if I have any grounds to go back to the place that did this work and ask, politely, for my money back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 As far as i can see here> Both adjuster lobes are at six o'clock, if this is true and it looks that way then yes "demand" your money back!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pazz Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 To find a centre near you i suggest you enter your postcode here> http://www.alignmycar.co.uk/ every centre listed uses the expensive Hunter machine so i would expect them to be clued up regarding chassis calibration. Very useful website! Thanks for that. However, one of the garages that this site lists is one that I used for my most recent alignment. The staff were completely useless at using the Hunter System to its potential. I spent most of the time trying to help them myself, and I'm definetly no expert. They couldnt print me off a "before & after" sheet because they didnt have a printer hooked up to the system. They spent a total of 2 hours on the job and struggled immensely. Half the places on the website appear to be accident repair garages/bodyshops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 @ pazz..... I absolutely agree with you but "align my car" is the best current "chance" people have to find a decent centre. This is my opinion of the battle most people have....... Find a centre Find a centre with the right equipment Find a centre with the right equipment who use all the fields Find a centre with the right equipment who use all the fields who are not scared of any modifications Find a centre with the right equipment who use all the fields who are not scared of any modifications and can assist in evolutionary setup's Find a centre with the right equipment who use all the fields who are not scared of any modifications and can assist in evolutionary setup's and tune this to suit the driver Shall i go on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIH Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 All this sounds so familiar..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 All this sounds so familiar..... Cover those fields then you are wim...... I don't intend to suggest we are the best, there are some suburb company's out there but they are few and far between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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