Anees Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Hi Guys, I had a new rear tyre fitted on Tuesday (to replaced punctured one), I asked the place I was using (WheelBase in Oldham) to balance by front tyres. I was getting a slight vibration at from 40 to 80ish (where it got quite bad). Drove the car home and noticed the vibration still there once I got on the motorway from 60 - 80mph. At 70mph the vibration is not too bad, but at 80mph its really bad, with the wheel really jumping about. I assumed the balancing was not quite right, so I went to my mates garage where I know he keeps his machine calibrated all the time and we balanced the wheels again; they were out by 9Lbs one side and 14Lbs other side. He did explain to me that different places use different methods to balance their wheels - he balances his wheels on the outside only and has never had a comeback. Both wheels came up 0.0 on the machine so he refitted them and I thought that would be the end of the problem; driving home I still have the same problem. I am confident its not the wheel balancing anymore so what could it be? Car is on Eibach Coilovers, Eibach Anti Roll Bars, Powerflex Front Wishbone Rear Bush and Powerflex Rear Trailing Arm Bush. The following info maybe unrelated but it might be useful: This week I have noticed that the ride on the coilovers has stiffened up too - done about 1000miles on them now. An issue I have recently noticed too is that the steering wheel in the centre position appears to be very slightly dead in that I can make tiny adjustments and it doesn't really affect the wheels that much. I suppose its not "sharp". When I had the geometry done about three weeks ago; I thought that the steering was not quite straight; so went back and they straightened it up for me, although thinking about it it might be related to the issue above. The geometry is all in spec apart from the caster which is very slightly out (but is not adjustable anyway). What other things are their to check? I am thinking that since all the above suspension mods have been done (and uprated) I am now seeing the next week link in the suspension raise its head. Any advice appreciated. Thanks, Anees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Anees do your wheels have spigot rings?...... Also when the wheels where balanced where the rings still attached to the wheels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H. Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 I've just had a new set of tyres on my MR2 and they do the same. Starting around 40 they start to vibrate, by 70 its pretty crazy. They were rebalanced by the same place today and they are the better now with only mild vibration on the wheel. The weights are inside the rim as they previously were. I might have them rebalanced again somewhere else later. I still cant find anywhere in Leeds to do a full geometry check on the car though . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anees Posted October 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Hi Tony The wheels (Beyern Mesh) are Hubcentric and do not need spiggot rings. Beyern Wheels are design exclusively for BMW motor vehicles. All Beyern wheels are perfectly hub centric and made to the tightest tolerances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Hi Tony The wheels (Beyern Mesh) are Hubcentric and do not need spiggot rings. Beyern Wheels are design exclusively for BMW motor vehicles. All Beyern wheels are perfectly hub centric and made to the tightest tolerances. I still think the problem is balance.... You need to find somewhere that can balance wheels with a solid centre, like Peugeot-Citreon. The wheels are bolted to the machine on a rig like this..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anees Posted October 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 UPDATE Went to my mates garage today and he did spent some serious time on that car that I am thankful for. We went on a proper run taking in all kinds of roads. The steering definetly does jump about/wobble; but it is not always at the same speed. The car seems to pull to the left sightly too and on the motorway it seemed to wonder slightly. He also noticed far too much play in the steering wheel. He could make quite sizable turns on the steering wheel before the wheel actually moved. When the car is not running the amount of play increases. Obviously after having spent all this money on suspension I wasn't expecting it to be that bad! We got the car on the ramp and he had a good look around. I was expecting him to say that the front wishbones/ball joints were knackered - but no, he said they seemed fine. He said the only thing he could think of was a "steering wheel knuckle joint" (he couldn't remember the proper name) or maybe even the steering rack. Had had a look and the bits were hot because of the drive we had just been on; but he DID find play, but couldn't tell if it was coming from the steering rack or the knuckle joint that connects to it. He said that play in this knuckle joint would definetly explain the unresponsive steering, the wondering and the "shimmying" "jittering" He is a great believer in OEM and he always was against coilovers; but even he didn't think it was the coilovers at fault - but they do contribute towards the issue because they are stiffer. Not sure what to do now? I bet a e46 steering rack is EXPENSIVE! Is a steering rack something worth buying from a scrap yard? One going on ebay for a £100 which is from a 54reg car with 30K miles. EDIT: Tony seen your post - really appreciate the picture. The reason I got the balancing done in the first place from Wheelbase in Oldham is that when I had my Lexus they were the only place that could balance the wheels properly and they have all the latest equipment (yes I know operator is just as important) and are an Alloy Wheel specialist selling all kinds of wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H. Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 http://www.flashmetal.com/joint-assy-lower...front-242-p.asp Like that (thats for an mr2) a Lower ball joint perhaps? Are they tested at MOT time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anees Posted October 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Thanks Mark: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?mo...hg=32&fg=30 Its the part at the top with 3 - 5 written on it I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Anees.... The rear front wishbone (castor) bushing, habitually allows the wheel to tremble when worn. It's an oil filled bladder bushing with a natural amount of play but if violated will generate vibration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anees Posted October 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Tony... (as always) appreciate your input The Front Rear Wishbone bushes and the rear trailing arm bushes have all been replaced with Powerflex items. What about Tie rod ends? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Tony... (as always) appreciate your input The Front Rear Wishbone bushes and the rear trailing arm bushes have all been replaced with Powerflex items. What about Tie rod ends? The ends would need to be pretty knacked to cause vibration.... Anyway i would have thought Drury lane would have checked them prior to your calibration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anees Posted October 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 You know what Tony? I am almost willing my mechanic mate to say ball joints/wishbones/bushes are shot just so I can be on the right line; but he insists they seem fine! Right been doing lots of digging into this. Apparently their is a rubber coupling on the lower steering column that can wear (which is I have discovered the same part my mate said had play in it). When it wears all the imperfections and vibrations in the road are no longer cushioned, so you get the vibration/judder and play. A few people on e46fanatics have replaced it and in most cases it has made a substantial improvement to play. Info Here: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.ph...t=steering+play I have ordered that part from my stealer today: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?mo...hg=32&fg=30 No - 4 for the newer cars. No - 2 for the older cars. Fingers crossed...... You are right Tony - you would think Drury would mention it if something like Tie Rods were that knackered as well as my mate; doubt its right. I also think you are correct about the wheel balancing - I probably do need it doing again on the machine you recommended. Do any national franchises have these machines? I also read yesterday somewhere about a forum member on e46fanatics that had a front wheel vibration issue and he ended up solving it by rebalancing the REAR wheels!! Does that sound feasible? Thanks, Anees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 The peeps in the E46 forum would know more about the cars traits than me but.....Normally if the steering coupling is worn the car also tends to wander? Rear balance and steering vibration has no connection in my book... And even if this were possible the BMW build quality is to refined in areas like wheels-suspension and steering to allow such intrusion to the driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anees Posted October 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 The peeps in the E46 forum would know more about the cars traits than me but.....Normally if the steering coupling is worn the car also tends to wander? What I do know is that it should reduce the play and hopefully vibrations. Not sure on the wonder - but hoping so. My theory is that since the suspension has been stiffened up, along with the powerflex bushes more vibrations have been sent through the steering column which has caused the already weaked coupling to wear signifanctly causing the vibrations and judder. ?? The wonder I am still worried about. Could the geometry be causing any issues? The geometry is almost all BMW spec settiing apart from the caster being slightly out (but its none adjustable anyway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 The peeps in the E46 forum would know more about the cars traits than me but.....Normally if the steering coupling is worn the car also tends to wander? What I do know is that it should reduce the play and hopefully vibrations. Not sure on the wonder - but hoping so. My theory is that since the suspension has been stiffened up, along with the powerflex bushes more vibrations have been sent through the steering column which has caused the already weaked coupling to wear signifanctly causing the vibrations and judder. ?? The wonder I am still worried about. Could the geometry be causing any issues? The geometry is almost all BMW spec settiing apart from the caster being slightly out (but its none adjustable anyway) If the castor is to high (to positive) then you can get high speed vibration...... As i read things yours is a little low so i wouldn't worry about that. It's interesting what you say about "stiffening" the bushings though, since in essence the suspensions natural frequency would have changed. I think it would now be higher needing more driver input..... Sam@TDi is the man who owns this field so a pm may be wise but i would estimate you are now running 2.0 to 2.5Hz per second rather than the comfortable 1.8Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anees Posted October 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 I'm sorry to sound stupid but WHAT?! Suspension has a frequency?? Think I better do some googling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 I'm sorry to sound stupid but WHAT?! Suspension has a frequency?? Think I better do some googling. Stop googling> http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/forum/ind...?showtopic=1880 superb explanation by Sam@TDi Appreciate all things that move have a frequency and there are many deliberate areas in the modern car to suppress-counter or simply absorb it. Bushings absorb huge amounts of vibration so you must have a change in the mechanical frequency and as Sam explains you also have a change in the natural frequency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anees Posted October 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Thanks Tony Superb article by Sam@TDI.......very informative! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Thanks Tony Superb article by Sam@TDI.......very informative! I know.... I love him and want to have his babies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anees Posted October 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Tony, Can balljoints go bad - even if they look ok? Just been thinking whether its worth replacing them anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Tony, Can balljoints go bad - even if they look ok? Just been thinking whether its worth replacing them anyway? If we were talking about a MK1 Cortina i would say yes.... But on modern cars with sealed joints it's rare a joint gets so bad you get vibration... Knocking yes, wondering yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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