gmarq Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Hey there, Does anybody know of a place in Glasgow that does 4 wheel laser alignment with a print-out? Stop N Steer have been taken over by 'Nationwide Autocentre', who no longer offer the print-out facility. For the record,my Ford Escort 1.6 Zetec, year 2000, had the left passenger wheel wheel totally worn down just on the outside, so had to be replaced for MOT. Previous alignment doesn't seem to have resolved this, as the camber isn't adjustable. The track rod end has been replaced recently, along with wishbones. I've been told by the 'nationwide autocentre' mechanic that the £49.95 4 wheel alignment without printout is all they could do, as the camber isn't adjustable. When I mentioned KPI and castor he gave a strange look, which didn't instill confidence. I've shoved some pirelli p6000's on the front axle, and I don't fancy replacing the passenger one every 4k miles due to the s***ey suspension setup on the Escort! Thanks in advance people. http://aycu10.webshots.com/image/14809/200...57018347_rs.jpg http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/17279/200...59251812_rs.jpg Here's 2 pics. One of the drivers wheel with spikes still intact, and looking great, the other shows wear already, suggesting this wheel will go the same as the othe r wheel that was an MOT failure last time! New wishbones a few months ago and track-rod end 2 weeks ago. Really need this sorted, cheers! UPDATE: Hi-Q McConechys done 4 wheel alignment, only the drivers side was out by a couple of degrees, they said the passenger one is straight on it would appear. From the pics it is obvious the shoulder wear could now be a recurring problem, even after the track-rod end has been replaced, and the wishbones. Is there anything I should ask another garage to check, like shock-wear? All the car is standard, no lowering or such stuff, which is why I'm a bit peeved this crap is happening again, on the same side, with no garage able to diagnose. A bit ridiculous frankly. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Hi, welcome to WIM Are you from FEOC, I remember your post from there? Your pics aren't showing, are the URL's correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Welcome to wim Although i have an idea what is wrong with the car the images would conclude this if the link worked.... Can you try again please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarq Posted May 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Buonjourno potatos. The links wrapped automatically, oh dear. Yeah, from FEOC, if I'm to keep shoving p6000's on this i'll be a skint person for sure! The actual correct links are: http://aycu10.webshots.com/image/14809/200...57018347_rs.jpg - normal driver's side, no problems it would seem http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/17279/200...59251812_rs.jpg - passenger's side, obvious wear compared to the other side, 4 wheel alignment apparently done, 2 garages stating all seems normal, one saying I may be paranoid. However the previous wheel looked the same as this before it failed the MOT, which would be a shame to happen again on an otherwise standard good condition example Escort... to be continued? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Buonjourno potatos. The links wrapped automatically, oh dear. Yeah, from FEOC, if I'm to keep shoving p6000's on this i'll be a skint person for sure! The actual correct links are: http://aycu10.webshots.com/image/14809/200...57018347_rs.jpg - normal driver's side, no problems it would seem http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/17279/200...59251812_rs.jpg - passenger's side, obvious wear compared to the other side, 4 wheel alignment apparently done, 2 garages stating all seems normal, one saying I may be paranoid. However the previous wheel looked the same as this before it failed the MOT, which would be a shame to happen again on an otherwise standard good condition example Escort... to be continued? I would have preferred to have seen the old tyre rather than the mildly worn replacement. Some questions... 1: Does the car pull to one side 2: Is the steering wheel central 3: Is your turn left as responsive as the turn right 4: Does the steering wheel return easily after a left turn 5: When on a full right lock is there any tyre squeal You mentioned a two degree correction is this actually 2mm? two degrees is an awful lot Geometrically..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarq Posted May 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 The garage threw away the old tyre before I had a chance to do anything with it back in February unfortunately, after the MOT... 1: Does the car pull to one side 2: Is the steering wheel central 3: Is your turn left as responsive as the turn right 4: Does the steering wheel return easily after a left turn 5: When on a full right lock is there any tyre squeal 1) Generally no, the passenger front tyre loses more pressure per month than the drivers side, but I do check pressures weekly, and keep the front at 35 psi, as per the manual, and 31 rear. I notice a slight pull to the left sometimes, but i am convinced that's basically due to the camber of the road I happen to be on when this occurrs, which is almost obvious when you stare ahead and realise the road is naturally sloping down from right to left, so it would be natural for the car configured correctly to slightly head left, very very slightly albeit. 2) Well not anymore, since the alignment at Hi-Q a few days ago, the steering-wheel is definitely not central when going in a straight line, which I have 2 options for: go back to Hi-Q and get it checked out, or just move the steering-wheel central myself. I suppose over time it is possible not to have a straight steering wheel when heading straight, is that correct? My reckoning was that I should just straighten it myself by taking the steering-wheel off then replacing correctly, as it's just been aligned, it's the steering wheel that's wrong. ( Bad science? ) 3) Left and right are responsive, I've not had any complaints in that department, although having not driven 'excellent' cars before perhaps I'm just used to the crap design of the Escort 4) The steering wheel does seem to return pretty easily, but I think perhaps this is something I'd need to go try before I could comment; but for now i'd say i'd never noticed any problem in the return. 5) Not tyre squeel, no rubbing off the arches, however I've noticed a slight noise recently, when informed the garage doing the major service, was told it could just be a dry bush in the dry spell we'd had here, and not to worry. It's only noticable in first gear at very low speed, ie: when going to do a full lock when parking, etc. It's not too loud, and just sounds like a very minor creak, but not mechanical. More like the creak you'd get when you rub rubber with rubber, very hard to explain. Actually, get this: I don't drive the car for long drives, but if I do, the above noise becomes exarcerbated; in a traffic jam turning corners a lot in a city for example, the above 'dry bush' (correct diagnosis?) noise is non-stop at slow speed. Turning the steering wheel slightly gives off this rubber-to-rubber wear noise. I got my partner to turn the steering wheel full lock when the car was stationary, which I am aware is not recommended, but the rubbing-rubber noise was not audible from either passenger or drivers wheel when turning from left to right full lock, and vice-versa, perhaps just signs of an old steering rack then? I know this is a lot of information. I am going to give a line of events that have happened to the car, and their associated issues, or not, if any:- November 2006 - Get car from auction December 2006 - Replace wishbones, obvious wear on front passenger tyre. MOT done, failed on tyre, new tyre put on. January 2006ish - Deep council pothole hit on passenger front-side, very scary, thought car had fell apart. 2 garages said "you're very lucky, no damage, passenger alloy is buggered though" January 2006ish again - Two new p6000's on front axle, no other damage informed, so no action taken. Alloy was basically dented in one place because of pothole, e-tyres.co.uk who put the tyres on hammered it, and it seemed a decent repair, it wasn't hugely damaged. Results are a loss of PSI on front passenger tyre, but it's very slow, 3psi every month arguably, can't remember exactly April 2006 - Tyre wear obvious again, major service done, track-rod end replaced, wishbones fine upon inspection, garage confirms all is okay. Garage replaced track-rod end in-line with correct measurement previously taken, quick tracking/alignment done by them, all as before, normal within limits. May 2006 - Tyre wear worrying, 4 wheel alignment done at Hi-Q, the guy said "couple of degrees out on drivers side, nothing major, all seems fine", only adjustments made to drivers side as such, garage obviously not sure what the problem was on the passenger side. -Mechanic with 17 years experience in my work (new to him) job states: maybe imagining things, looks okay, sees my point about the wear, suggests full suspension check, etc, ideally a 4 "wheel laser alignment with print-out" - can't seem to get this done anywhere with the print-out I know this seems a long story, but the short of it is that things have been replaced where required, and garages seem unable to see an issue. Perhaps there isn't one, but do the photographs display obvious wear on one side and not another? I feel so, dunno about anybody here though, it surely seems like wear doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Difficult one. Without worn tyre images it's hard to diagnose but i can say this. Without actual forces like a pull to one side then the evident wear must occur during a steering action! I feel the car has a bent nsf steering arm! The initial bend can be corrected by simple wheel alignment and the car will drive perfectly straight... No pull.... Steering aligned... But as soon as you make a left turn the TOOT (toe out on turns) will be wrong. This drags the tyre laterally wearing the outside as you describe..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarq Posted May 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Difficult one. Without worn tyre images it's hard to diagnose but i can say this. Without actual forces like a pull to one side then the evident wear must occur during a steering action! I feel the car has a bent nsf steering arm! The initial bend can be corrected by simple wheel alignment and the car will drive perfectly straight... No pull.... Steering aligned... But as soon as you make a left turn the TOOT (toe out on turns) will be wrong. This drags the tyre laterally wearing the outside as you describe..... This sounds like the problem. I'm just getting through a PhD in mechanics, and I'm naturally interested in these sorts of problems. If I had free access to ramps, I would spend plenty of time looking at everything, with the problem evident in a few moments I feel. However, garages don't like you saying "Ah, the lateral (blah blah blah) here is dubious, can we measure this" - they just think you're some random hillbilly presuming to know everything. I feel the garages perhaps had a "change it and see" culture. Could this be a valid point:- between the new tyres and the track-rod end being replaced, tyre shoulder wear has occurred. Now that the track-rod end has been replaced, perhaps no further wear is occurring, and the road conditions (wet cleaning dirt off the wear-area?) are maybe just making the tyre look as if it's getting worse, but it is in fact okay. I'm going to go to the garage that done the major service, and changed the track-rod end, the manager who changed parts seemed pretty competant, perhaps all this searching for a problem is in vain if the track-rod end was always the problem. From what I read up through a journal mechanics search, the track-rod end wouldn't directly cause the shoulder-wear though... I think a doctorate dissertation has meant I now write very long posts. Sincere apologies! Nice vehicle by the way, gotta love the doors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted May 29, 2007 Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 I'm not comfortable with the track rod end being the criminal here. Since the position of the end is behind the wheel then a worn end will allow toe out as the tyre reacts to rolling resistance. Toe in during thrust and toe in during a right turn. Since the thrust and directional toe position is shared between both front wheels then the damage to one tyre doesn't correlate. The toe-in during a right turn is 'occasional' compared to the forward toe position. I fail to see how this would wear the tyre as described. If you have a violated TOOT (toe-out-on-turns) then this explains the complaint and would need testing in a deliberate manor. With to right equipment this test takes 5min... Here is an explanation of TOOT from wim-web (Technical) ..................................... Steering geometry theory and Axis deviation Theory Definitions and background The characteristic angle, looked at previously, put the wheels in precise positions during the straight line travel of the vehicle, as well as this, there are a number of particular effects, due to these angles, when the vehicle is negotiating a bend, When the wheels are turned, another very important condition is created that is directly linked to the radius of the curve being negotiated, To understand this condition, it is better to start by considering a wheel that is travelling at a very low speed without interference, in this situation there are no perturbation forces acting on the vehicle, such as, for example, centrifugal force, sideways thrust from the wind, very strong acceleration thrusts from the engine, etc, An indispensable condition, in order to prevent the wheel from being subject to sideways drag, which would be very damaging for the tread, is that, whilst following a curved trajectory the wheel must be in a position that is perpendicular to the radius of the curve itself, When a whole axis is turned, the wheels, although they are travelling on two different circumferences, must keep in a perpendicular position to the radii of these circumferences so that they turn around the same centre of rotation, When a whole vehicle is turned, which means two axes simultaneously, the same conditions must be respected, and the rear axis must turn about the same rotation centre, This condition can be respected easily if the whole axis is turned when making the turn, with a pin at the centre point, however, for obvious reasons of stability and under-chassis space restrictions, this cannot be done on motor vehicles, in fact, motor vehicles are steered by means of the joints created by the kingpins, the wheel hubs, in this case, behave as if there were two separate axes, But, if the two wheels are turned in the same way, through an angle, following parallel trajectories, the steering radii, being parallel, cannot converge on to the same centre, in this case there will not be a common steering centre and the wheel will drag heavily on bends, The steering geometry is in a toe-out position during a turn, it is expressed as a value, in degrees, through which the wheels turn, (consider one fixed value on the turn of 20 degree set by convention), Example The outer wheel on the turn turns through 20 degrees and the inner wheel through 23 degrees or, vice versa, the inner wheel on the turn turns through 20 degrees and the outer wheel through 17 degrees, in this example it can be seen that the toe-in on the basis of 20 degrees is 3 degrees, taken from the difference (20 degrees - 17 degrees), or from the difference (23 degrees - 20 degrees), thus, the ideal condition is the following, Turning radius 23 Degrees 20 Degrees Thrust angle The wheels, when travelling in a straight line, must have a toe-out value near to 0 degrees, and as soon as they start to turn the toe-out value must increase progressively, becoming more accentuated with increase in the angle of the turn, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarq Posted May 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 An update: Went back to another branch of the garage in question, took them a while, but they did adjust things some-what, but stated that the noise coming when turning the wheel after using the car for a while could be linked to the possible leaking suspension on the passenger side, and with a slightly bouncy ride, could mean the shocks need replacing. As far as I'm aware this has never been done before, so maybe it's worth getting the shocks changed? The top strut-mount could also be loose, but he didn't go into much detail. I can see a big bill in view. What a crap car!!!!!!!!!! Ahem, composure regained. Really though, I suppose at least it's not an alfa... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 An update: Went back to another branch of the garage in question, took them a while, but they did adjust things some-what, but stated that the noise coming when turning the wheel after using the car for a while could be linked to the possible leaking suspension on the passenger side, and with a slightly bouncy ride, could mean the shocks need replacing. As far as I'm aware this has never been done before, so maybe it's worth getting the shocks changed? The top strut-mount could also be loose, but he didn't go into much detail. I can see a big bill in view. What a crap car!!!!!!!!!! Ahem, composure regained. Really though, I suppose at least it's not an alfa... Im still not comfortable..... Remember that the damper is there to reply to the coil after compression so unless you corner like a loon then i fail to see why this would generate any tyre wear. Also the top mount is captive in the turret and could only knock like a bugger or make the steering stiff to turn if seized..... Still no tyre wear. You need someone to check the steering arm if only for elimination.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarq Posted May 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Im still not comfortable..... Remember that the damper is there to reply to the coil after compression so unless you corner like a loon then i fail to see why this would generate any tyre wear. Also the top mount is captive in the turret and could only knock like a bugger or make the steering stiff to turn if seized..... Still no tyre wear. You need someone to check the steering arm if only for elimination.... A competant garage is the only solution. It's going in tomorrow morning, I will explain all the issues, and see what they say. The guy seems to palm off my suggestion something is wrong, but he's obvioulsy not listened to the sounds going on from within the cabin after a lengthy drive. I will update you with the bad news, feel free to email me your creditcard number in receipt of the invoice, as per your offer. Hint hint... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarq Posted June 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 The garage passed it to their wheel alignment specialist, in another garage, who spent an hour on it and commented that it was a 'mile out', although I've heard that off every garage remember. It does feel much better now, and although the steering wheel isn't exactly centre, the wheel doesn't vibrate at motorway speeds just as much as it used to, so it's definitely solved something. The noise is still present, but the garage said they couldn't find any other problems, and all looked pretty good considering the car's 7 years old, and had minimal parts replaced. I guess the only option is to do long journeys and try isolate the noise, could prove very tough though. Cheers for your input, the problem still exists, but the shoulder wear on the tyre will be monitored, and if any more experienced, we can rule the alignment/toe in/out out completely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 One of the problems with basic alignment is you don't get a before/after printout so you have to assume it's been done correctly..... Let's hope this time it has Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarq Posted June 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 One of the problems with basic alignment is you don't get a before/after printout so you have to assume it's been done correctly..... Let's hope this time it has The positive garage-owner said to me it was because of the price of machines, the critic in me thinks it's more likely because this would enable a customer to provide a worthy case of refund. I'll definitely update in the future, I've learned a lot about the whole mechanism from start to finish, so for that alone I thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 One of the problems with basic alignment is you don't get a before/after printout so you have to assume it's been done correctly..... Let's hope this time it has The positive garage-owner said to me it was because of the price of machines, the critic in me thinks it's more likely because this would enable a customer to provide a worthy case of refund. I'll definitely update in the future, I've learned a lot about the whole mechanism from start to finish, so for that alone I thank you! Not at all.... Your input and experiences have been very valuable. So thank you. Stay with us if you can.. Others will need your advise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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