BuyPirelli Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Hello Tony, I know we’ve discussed this previously but I’ve got the same problem AGAIN on my new car and I would just like to clarify a few things. I had some new wishbone bushes and winter tyres fitted on my Focus ST, the car drove perfect and the steering was spot on but I wanted it aligned to ensure I didn’t kill the tyres. Just like 9 months ago with my ST220, my car has come off the aligner worse than when it went in (Hunter DSP 600 4)! Within 30ft I noticed that to drive in a straight line the steering wheel has to be 5 degrees or so to the left, grrr! I did a few miles test drive and took it back; they put it back onto the Hunter and asked me to confirm I was happy with the steering position before they re-align the car. The wheel was clamped and I climbed in and checked it, it looked spot on. But you guessed it, as soon as I drove on the road I could tell the car was exactly as before, i.e. driving to the right with the wheel in the straight ahead position. I left it at there for now, but I want to go back on Monday and get it sorted – then I won’t be using them again. Is this operator error or is there some play in the ‘dead ahead’ position of the steering wheel? If they were to align the car again with the wheel 5 degrees to the right would this cure the problem? This is so frustrating. I am hoping if they don’t fix it then I can get my money back via my credit card company as they have not provided a satisfactory service. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Tomorrow morning I will swap the front wheels side to side to rule them out (though it was fine before), in the mean time any advice based on the assumption that changing the wheels has no affect would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Actually I'm just thinking, won't the rear tyres need to be swapped as well? I know if the rear axle is out, you will have to correct it with the steering - thus making the front axle appear to be out when in fact it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyelcomb Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Although it says that its within tolerance, surely having 1 degree more negative camber on the front left (and 1/2 degree more negative camber on the left rear) is going to cause some amount of pull? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 It's the tyres generating the steering position, have you moved them yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Good morning everybody. Right I swapped the front alloys side to side, but I had to leave the rears as they are as the locking wheel nut snapped (common Focus fault, not happy). Unfortunately there appears to be little or no difference, however I did take note of my tread depths as they tyres had previously done 10,000 miles on my Mondeo. All measurements are outside to inside Passenger Front 6.27 - 6.75 - 6.70 - 6.18 Drivers Front 6.16 - 6.77 - 6.86 - 6.06 Passenger Rear 7.24 - 8.00 - 8.02 - 7.29 Drivers Rear 6.68 - 7.49 - 7.57 - 6.41 Are these of any consideration? I could have sworn the steering wheel alignment was correct before going on the Hunter. Tony, how confident are you that its the tyres? Does the Hunter store all reports for all cars its been used on? If so can I go back and get the set back / wheel base measurements? Is your number still 07984427383? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Furthermoore, here is a picture of what my steering wheel looks like when trying to drive in a straight line. It doesn't look like much in the pictures but it stands out like a sore thumb when your doing 70mph on a perfect motorway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 I've been for a bit more of a drive, and its possible there is an improvement but it can be so hard to tell, can't it? Tony, if I go back to the alignment centre tomorrow and get the full details which are saved on the computer, will you be able to differentiate between the tyres being at fault or the alignment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Don't bother with my mobile number at the moment because my phone has died..... As for confident? The geometry positions are fine assuming the steering position was correctly set at the time of the calibration. The next step would be to move the tyres side-to-side and test drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Yes the wheel was correct when the geometry was done, I checked it with my own eyes. As said I could only swap the front tyres and not the rear, I'll have to drill the locking wheel nut out before I can do that. I suspect we can no longer investigate this further then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Moving the fronts side-to-side will be fine for testing purposes, even if they are directional tyres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Thats what I did, it may have helped but the problem is still there. Surely though if the rears are causing pull then it will cause me to counter steer using the steering wheel, hence the offset position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 It's very rare the rear will curse a pull but it happens..... Are you going back in today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Wasn't going to unless you think I can benefit from it in some way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Be sure to get a printout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Been back, same issue...I have various print outs which I'll stick up later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 The difference between the front cambers could be an issue but the steering position was fine before...... All i can really think is their equipment is out of calibration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Hi Tony, I appreciate our chat earlier so thank you for that, I did feel a little cheeky having given you no prior custom but as said when I need alignment doing in future I will just come and see you as although it'll cost me £50 in fuel it'll be a headache free option. The chap at the alignment centre was friendly enough about it and did take his time, he also drove the car and agreed there was a problem. Once again the wheel was clamped and I agreed it was straight ahead. Once the alignment was complete he said if it still doesn't fix the problem then the only thing he thinks it could be is the negative camber on the front, also as its not adjustable he suspects the subframe has been removed and refitted slightly off base although I know this to not be true as the subframe has never been off. For now I'll just live with it, I'm just a little dissapointed as I am 99% sure the steering was straight prior to the alignment. Also FYI the alignment was actually done on the new Hawkeye and not the Hunter 600. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMARTLY Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Does look like it's a bit bent to a layman like me. Has it had any knocks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 No, the differences between the axles are normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMARTLY Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 What 5mm between the front two sides? Is that manufacturing tolerances then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 Yep, totally normal. I'm told and perhaps Tony can confirm, that normally its the passenger side that is shorter than the drivers side because thats the side that gets smacked into curbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 18, 2012 Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 All the set back and wheel base figures are fine. The front camber disparity can generate a force that would mean a left hand down position but it was like that before the original alignment so it's hard to blame that. I question the level of their ramp, purely because the before/ after camber positions has changed although it's not adjustable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyPirelli Posted December 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 Good evening all. While I agree camber can make a car pull to one side, wouldn't a manufacture insist on tolerances which would disregard the servere effects of camber? Anyway, as simple as this sounds I had a brain storm earlier. Is it the tyres, the camber, the alignment or the steering position? My answer is: the steering position. Why? Driving along a smooth motorway with the car in a perfectly straight line and with the wheel slightly to the left - if I remove my hands off the wheel the steering position stays where it is, and the car continue to track steady a head. If any forces were acting on the car they would be apparent the moment I let go of the wheel. Tony would you agree that either the steering was set incorrect, or their machine is incorrectly calibrated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 19, 2012 Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 Looking for the criminal is key to the complaint..... Fact is the steering position was fine until the tyres were changed and the geometry set. One or the other is the criminal. Moving the tyres is a diagnostic, failing a result from that the geo is the next line of sight. In the event this proves correct then another geo elsewhere should be done in order to validate their machines calibration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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