Roger440 Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 There is much talk in the Porsche world of Kinematic toe on 993's Check this link here: http://www.autofarm.co.uk/new.php3/Geom.html Given that they appear to have a John Bean machine just like any other, what is your interpretation of the term "kinematic toe"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 There is much talk in the Porsche world of Kinematic toe on 993's Check this link here: http://www.autofarm.co.uk/new.php3/Geom.html Given that they appear to have a John Bean machine just like any other, what is your interpretation of the term "kinematic toe"? I'm sure Tony will be along to put me right, but I think its a setting to take account of the forces imparted by the driving power of the rear wheels. There's also elastokinematic changes that need to be taken account of, which is the changes that can take place due to the compressability of the suspension rubber mounts on most road cars.....I found this on the web, but I don't profess to understand all of it!! http://www.ika.rwth-aachen.de/lehre/kfz-la...?PHPSESSID=0a3d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 There is much talk in the Porsche world of Kinematic toe on 993's Check this link here: http://www.autofarm.co.uk/new.php3/Geom.html Given that they appear to have a John Bean machine just like any other, what is your interpretation of the term "kinematic toe"? Kinematic evaluation is a development environment far detached from our environment or the John Bean machine. I would describe the term more as a proving ground rather than a commercial tool aiding our field. The company displayed in the link i feel are using this generic term to justify cost to the customer.. £150+vat for the test only on the Bean is... well pants really! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted October 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Good to see your evaluation was not far different from mine! In 993 world it seems to have developed into an urban myth. Normal people cant do it, it seems. I can only assume from what i have managed to find that getting a stable reading is the problem. Ie jack it up and put it down and it doesn't settle to its "normal" position. Clearly a 3D machine with a rollback/forward calibration would be advantageous. Still, i should know soon as ive got one coming in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 There is much talk in the Porsche world of Kinematic toe on 993's Check this link here: http://www.autofarm.co.uk/new.php3/Geom.html Given that they appear to have a John Bean machine just like any other, what is your interpretation of the term "kinematic toe"? Kinematic evaluation is a development environment far detached from our environment or the John Bean machine. I would describe the term more as a proving ground rather than a commercial tool aiding our field. The company displayed in the link i feel are using this generic term to justify cost to the customer.. £150+vat for the test only on the Bean is... well pants really! Josh Sadler used to run Autofarm, don't know if he still does but he wasn't one to rip anyone off. There's also a tool available for setting the kinematic toe..retails at $350 in the U.S No, I don't know how it works either. Kinematic Toe Tool for 993 This tool is a copy of the Porsche Motorsports part for setting the Kinematic Toe Adjustment on the rear of all 993 models. This is a critical adjustment that can dramatically affect the handling of the car. This tool requires and includes 4 allen head bolts to replace the factory rear brake caliper bolts. These are factory Porsche parts with the same dimensions and hardness as the original hex bolts. The Kinematic Toe Tool hangs from the round allen bolts. $350 includes tool, bolts, instructions and ground shipping (USA only). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 There is much talk in the Porsche world of Kinematic toe on 993's Check this link here: http://www.autofarm.co.uk/new.php3/Geom.html Given that they appear to have a John Bean machine just like any other, what is your interpretation of the term "kinematic toe"? Kinematic evaluation is a development environment far detached from our environment or the John Bean machine. I would describe the term more as a proving ground rather than a commercial tool aiding our field. The company displayed in the link i feel are using this generic term to justify cost to the customer.. £150+vat for the test only on the Bean is... well pants really! Josh Sadler used to run Autofarm, don't know if he still does but he wasn't one to rip anyone off. There's also a tool available for setting the kinematic toe..retails at $350 in the U.S No, I don't know how it works either. Without absolute evidence a 'ripping off' terminology would be wrong on my behalf since the term and testing methods are foreign to my field..... Please understand a tool that costs $350 cannot surly apply as an addition to the Beam and reflect the image displayed in the link.... If so here is a UK version, cost £1.95 +vat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted October 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Thanks Tango Here it is fitted. I'm thinking about this! http://www.autometricsmotorsports.com/products/ktt/ktt2.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Thanks Tango Here it is fitted. I'm thinking about this! http://www.autometricsmotorsports.com/products/ktt/ktt2.jpg You beat me to it...I was about to post the same pic Why do you think it's only applicable to the 993? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted October 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I think the real question is why at all? Tony, you out there? It seems to be measuring a castor like angle???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I think the real question is why at all? Tony, you out there? It seems to be measuring a castor like angle???? I don't understand it... What i do know it has no relevance to Castor... the scale reads 8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1. This device has some relevant to COG and dynamic toe, but i fail to see the end result.. each time i read the advert i come up empty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted October 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I think the real question is why at all? Tony, you out there? It seems to be measuring a castor like angle???? I don't understand it... What i do know it has no relevance to Castor... the scale reads 8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1. This device has some relevant to COG and dynamic toe, but i fail to see the end result.. each time i read the advert i come up empty. Maybe the scale numbers have no actual meaning, rather, just a setting to be achived. Altering the relationship of the top and bottom arms will alter the reading. I think the ad is just a red herring! I can't find anything useful on the interweb so far. Just lots of people saying youy must do it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I think the real question is why at all? Tony, you out there? It seems to be measuring a castor like angle???? I don't understand it... What i do know it has no relevance to Castor... the scale reads 8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1. This device has some relevant to COG and dynamic toe, but i fail to see the end result.. each time i read the advert i come up empty. Maybe the scale numbers have no actual meaning, rather, just a setting to be achived. Altering the relationship of the top and bottom arms will alter the reading. I think the ad is just a red herring! I can't find anything useful on the interweb so far. Just lots of people saying youy must do it! I concur.... Shall we shoot this one and name it time waster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I think the real question is why at all? Tony, you out there? It seems to be measuring a castor like angle???? I don't understand it... What i do know it has no relevance to Castor... the scale reads 8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1. This device has some relevant to COG and dynamic toe, but i fail to see the end result.. each time i read the advert i come up empty. Maybe the scale numbers have no actual meaning, rather, just a setting to be achived. Altering the relationship of the top and bottom arms will alter the reading. I think the ad is just a red herring! I can't find anything useful on the interweb so far. Just lots of people saying youy must do it! I concur.... Shall we shoot this one and name it time waster Simple answer...don't buy a 993 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted October 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I think the real question is why at all? Tony, you out there? It seems to be measuring a castor like angle???? I don't understand it... What i do know it has no relevance to Castor... the scale reads 8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1. This device has some relevant to COG and dynamic toe, but i fail to see the end result.. each time i read the advert i come up empty. Maybe the scale numbers have no actual meaning, rather, just a setting to be achived. Altering the relationship of the top and bottom arms will alter the reading. I think the ad is just a red herring! I can't find anything useful on the interweb so far. Just lots of people saying youy must do it! I concur.... Shall we shoot this one and name it time waster Simple answer...don't buy a 993 Can't go with either of those ideas sadly, as ive got to do one soon, and its got a nervous twitch from the rear. Suppose i will have to buy said device and read the instructions. Won't make any money on that job at $350!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I think the real question is why at all? Tony, you out there? It seems to be measuring a castor like angle???? I don't understand it... What i do know it has no relevance to Castor... the scale reads 8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1. This device has some relevant to COG and dynamic toe, but i fail to see the end result.. each time i read the advert i come up empty. Maybe the scale numbers have no actual meaning, rather, just a setting to be achived. Altering the relationship of the top and bottom arms will alter the reading. I think the ad is just a red herring! I can't find anything useful on the interweb so far. Just lots of people saying youy must do it! I concur.... Shall we shoot this one and name it time waster Simple answer...don't buy a 993 Can't go with either of those ideas sadly, as ive got to do one soon, and its got a nervous twitch from the rear. Suppose i will have to buy said device and read the instructions. Won't make any money on that job at $350!!!! You may do as I found another one for sale on the web, slightly used, with a price tag of $450 Can only assume the guy lost his original receipt, or if you're lucky they really do appreciate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I think the real question is why at all? Tony, you out there? It seems to be measuring a castor like angle???? I don't understand it... What i do know it has no relevance to Castor... the scale reads 8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1. This device has some relevant to COG and dynamic toe, but i fail to see the end result.. each time i read the advert i come up empty. Maybe the scale numbers have no actual meaning, rather, just a setting to be achived. Altering the relationship of the top and bottom arms will alter the reading. I think the ad is just a red herring! I can't find anything useful on the interweb so far. Just lots of people saying youy must do it! I concur.... Shall we shoot this one and name it time waster Simple answer...don't buy a 993 Can't go with either of those ideas sadly, as ive got to do one soon, and its got a nervous twitch from the rear. Suppose i will have to buy said device and read the instructions. Won't make any money on that job at $350!!!! Have you measured the car before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted October 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I think the real question is why at all? Tony, you out there? It seems to be measuring a castor like angle???? I don't understand it... What i do know it has no relevance to Castor... the scale reads 8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1. This device has some relevant to COG and dynamic toe, but i fail to see the end result.. each time i read the advert i come up empty. Maybe the scale numbers have no actual meaning, rather, just a setting to be achived. Altering the relationship of the top and bottom arms will alter the reading. I think the ad is just a red herring! I can't find anything useful on the interweb so far. Just lots of people saying youy must do it! I concur.... Shall we shoot this one and name it time waster Simple answer...don't buy a 993 Can't go with either of those ideas sadly, as ive got to do one soon, and its got a nervous twitch from the rear. Suppose i will have to buy said device and read the instructions. Won't make any money on that job at $350!!!! Have you measured the car before? No. The owner asked me about the kinematic toe. He had no idea what it was, but wanted to know that i knew all about it. Bit of a problem there as you can imagine - hence the need to find out, as well as the fact that the rear feels as if its stepping out mid corner on a nice sweeping bend. I drove it myself and it does feel like that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I think the real question is why at all? Tony, you out there? It seems to be measuring a castor like angle???? I don't understand it... What i do know it has no relevance to Castor... the scale reads 8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1. This device has some relevant to COG and dynamic toe, but i fail to see the end result.. each time i read the advert i come up empty. Maybe the scale numbers have no actual meaning, rather, just a setting to be achived. Altering the relationship of the top and bottom arms will alter the reading. I think the ad is just a red herring! I can't find anything useful on the interweb so far. Just lots of people saying youy must do it! I concur.... Shall we shoot this one and name it time waster Simple answer...don't buy a 993 Can't go with either of those ideas sadly, as ive got to do one soon, and its got a nervous twitch from the rear. Suppose i will have to buy said device and read the instructions. Won't make any money on that job at $350!!!! Have you measured the car before? No. The owner asked me about the kinematic toe. He had no idea what it was, but wanted to know that i knew all about it. Bit of a problem there as you can imagine - hence the need to find out, as well as the fact that the rear feels as if its stepping out mid corner on a nice sweeping bend. I drove it myself and it does feel like that! I think the patient is trying to over analyse his own diagnostics Without an Geometric image there is no foundation for resolving the handling symptoms... Kinematic toe reads like Betamax to me... move him on to something more constructive in the chassis world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted October 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I think the real question is why at all? Tony, you out there? It seems to be measuring a castor like angle???? I don't understand it... What i do know it has no relevance to Castor... the scale reads 8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1. This device has some relevant to COG and dynamic toe, but i fail to see the end result.. each time i read the advert i come up empty. Maybe the scale numbers have no actual meaning, rather, just a setting to be achived. Altering the relationship of the top and bottom arms will alter the reading. I think the ad is just a red herring! I can't find anything useful on the interweb so far. Just lots of people saying youy must do it! I concur.... Shall we shoot this one and name it time waster Simple answer...don't buy a 993 Can't go with either of those ideas sadly, as ive got to do one soon, and its got a nervous twitch from the rear. Suppose i will have to buy said device and read the instructions. Won't make any money on that job at $350!!!! Have you measured the car before? No. The owner asked me about the kinematic toe. He had no idea what it was, but wanted to know that i knew all about it. Bit of a problem there as you can imagine - hence the need to find out, as well as the fact that the rear feels as if its stepping out mid corner on a nice sweeping bend. I drove it myself and it does feel like that! I think the patient is trying to over analyse his own diagnostics Without an Geometric image there is no foundation for resolving the handling symptoms... Kinematic toe reads like Betamax to me... move him on to something more constructive in the chassis world. Thing is, if i can't show that i know what it is and have the means to do it, he won't come, and nor will others. Thats just how it is Better get the cheque book out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Quote: Roger. I don't understand... Although you are a professional person the product seems Mickey Mouse... In my 25yrs within Geometry i could never rise to new terminology like 'Kinematic' unless it's a proven product... we validate these developments not adopt them.... To say no it's pants can be a good thing..... and so far i think it's pants! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted November 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 It may well be pants, but right now i have no other way of finding out. Bear in mind that it is a copy of a genuine Porsche Motorsport Division item, so it WILL have a purpose. They don't do stuff for the sake of it, thats for sure. This will validate or otherwise. No better way than to do it yourself!! And, as ever, its developed into a myth to such an extent, that there is no getting away from it. Once i understand it, maybe i can do my bit to dispel or otherwise. Until then, my options are limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 It may well be pants, but right now i have no other way of finding out. Bear in mind that it is a copy of a genuine Porsche Motorsport Division item, so it WILL have a purpose. They don't do stuff for the sake of it, thats for sure. This will validate or otherwise. No better way than to do it yourself!! And, as ever, its developed into a myth to such an extent, that there is no getting away from it. Once i understand it, maybe i can do my bit to dispel or otherwise. Until then, my options are limited. ..Roger, if they will not deliver to the UK you could get it delivered to me in Houston. You've got until 16th November for them to deliver if you want to go that option, and I'll drop it off with Tony when I get back. It'll also avoid any duty at customs. Let me know and I'll pm my address in Houston, Texas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 Roger i give up... What exactly does this measure? and what benefit/compliment is it to a machine like the JB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted November 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 Thanks Tango. I may well take up your offer. Much appreciated. Tony, i have no idea currently! One of our customers has a 993, aside from the one who wants his alignment done, so im gonna try and get it on the ramp, wheels off and try to understand the rear suspension. Once i have done this i will feedback what i find. Hopefully i will also have aquired the necessary workshop manual updates to, but this is proving hard. Thought you were going to bed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 Thanks Tango. I may well take up your offer. Much appreciated. Tony, i have no idea currently! One of our customers has a 993, aside from the one who wants his alignment done, so im gonna try and get it on the ramp, wheels off and try to understand the rear suspension. Once i have done this i will feedback what i find. Hopefully i will also have aquired the necessary workshop manual updates to, but this is proving hard. Thought you were going to bed Sleep is for wimps ... The 911T club seem to be hitting wim at the moment Roger?.... these cars are not my speciality, the absence of this tool and the customer increase is making me nervous can you advise..? Then i will go to bed..... Squeaky clean.. no fags' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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