Lance Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 I booked my car in for a 4 wheel alignment today as after a recent encounter with a grass bank in the snow it just didn't feel 'right'. The steering felt numb and vague, not at all like it was before. I'm also fully aware of and a victim of the notorious tyre wear issue of the IS200. So armed with the WIM settings I took the car to the Alignment shop. Unfortunately they could not align the car as the NSR and OSF camber bolts were seized. They left the car with these settings. I must admit the car does feel better, steering is a lot more percise and the handling feels more taut. It's good but not good enough! What's your opinion on these settings? Am I going to need new tyres in 5k if it's left like this? Any suggestions of freeing up the camber bolts. I must add too that this was done FOC as they could not do as I had requested, even though they had the car in the workshop for over an hour. I can't complain about that. Regards, Lance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorps Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 couldn't they use heat to loosen them up? Im guessing its to far for a visit to WIM, im sure one of the team will respond soon and will offer a solution and look over the chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted February 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 couldn't they use heat to loosen them up? Im guessing its to far for a visit to WIM, im sure one of the team will respond soon and will offer a solution and look over the chart. Theres a rubber bushing on the adjuster, they said if heat was to be used it would destroy the bushing. Not good. I got them to coat the adjuster with a WD-40 substance. Hopefully it will do enough to release it. I'm in Belfast! A bit far to travel to WIM.! Does anyone have any suggestions, or experience of getting a proper Geo done this side of the water? The place I went to would be the most reputable, but like the rest they're only interested in basic alignments. I have been in contact with this guy, he's a motorsport prep specialist: He will do a Geo for £80, but need the bolts released first. http://www.aliburrowsmotorsport.com/gallery_geo.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorps Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 I'm in Belfast! A bit far to travel to WIM.! I thought thats where you were. Tony is the best one to talk to as im sure i've seen him put some heat into them b4 just enough to make them loosen a bit then get the trusted wrench on em, you could phone WIM central and talk to the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 There are issues.... The NSF wishbone is bent and i assume the cars pulling left. Top of the printout "ROC NOT PERFORMED" is not good since this calibrates everything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted February 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 There are issues.... The NSF wishbone is bent and i assume the cars pulling left. Top of the printout "ROC NOT PERFORMED" is not good since this calibrates everything? Oh dear. That's not good. The car does have a slight pull when braking I have noticed. So, I'm gonna have problems if that's not replaced? Why was the ROC not performed, in your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 There are issues.... The NSF wishbone is bent and i assume the cars pulling left. Top of the printout "ROC NOT PERFORMED" is not good since this calibrates everything? Oh dear. That's not good. The car does have a slight pull when braking I have noticed. So, I'm gonna have problems if that's not replaced? Why was the ROC not performed, in your opinion? Laziness, ROC is "Run Out Compensation" and ensures all data is not effected by clamping errors or damaged wheels. The "KPI" positions are not possible so there's an issue with the machine there and the rear toe problem is because the adjuster cam "rode" the adjuster ledge, this is very common on the IS and easily corrected if the adjustment is done with the car jacked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted February 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Good job they didn't charge me for this... I would be hopping by now! Thanks for your assistance on this Tony. I'm pretty peeved that two different garages, both performed alignments (one replaced the steering rack) but did not pick up on the fact the wishbone was bent and have made a total holicks of setting the car up! I'm gonna have to get that wishbone replaced then, get all the adjusting bolts freed up and try that motorsport guy and pray that he knows what he is doing to get the geo set on this car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 We would have had a better picture if the castor positions where updated after the camber was corrected.... Historically the castor would have been reduced so we have tow areas of concern here.... Initially the wishbone which is consistent with a side impact then possibly the tie-rod... This holds the wheels forward position. Since the "end positions" where not confirmed it's hard to conclude triangulation but the visible evidence is the wishbone has a bend on the neck. Sometimes you can see "witness marks" on the neck of the casting?.... this helps diagnostics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted February 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 We would have had a better picture if the castor positions where updated after the camber was corrected.... Historically the castor would have been reduced so we have tow areas of concern here.... Initially the wishbone which is consistent with a side impact then possibly the tie-rod... This holds the wheels forward position. Since the "end positions" where not confirmed it's hard to conclude triangulation but the visible evidence is the wishbone has a bend on the neck. Sometimes you can see "witness marks" on the neck of the casting?.... this helps diagnostics. Tony, you are nothing short of a genius. That is precisely what happened in the accident, the car spun out and the NSF wheel hit the grass bank more or less sideways on. Shocking that two so called reputable establishments who had their hands and eyes on the car could not spot this. The steering rack was replaced as the knuckle on the N/S was bent. They said there was no sign of any other apparent damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Not so sure about genius.... Fact is the NSF camber position initially being positive suggests lateral impact hence the positive camber position but? the printed KPI position is wrong for whatever reason. The mechanical part of the steering rack should have been fine, but the steering arm may have bent..... This detaches from the rack so there's no need to replace the entire rack? The rear toe issue is a real easy fix, release the loch nut, set the "cammed adjuster neutral" and with the wheels off the ground "manually" adjust the toe position positive, lower the car and use the adjuster cam to adjust toward negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted February 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Not so sure about genius.... Fact is the NSF camber position initially being positive suggests lateral impact hence the positive camber position but? the printed KPI position is wrong for whatever reason. The mechanical part of the steering rack should have been fine, but the steering arm may have bent..... This detaches from the rack so there's no need to replace the entire rack? The rear toe issue is a real easy fix, release the loch nut, set the "cammed adjuster neutral" and with the wheels off the ground "manually" adjust the toe position positive, lower the car and use the adjuster cam to adjust toward negative. Thanks for all you help on this Tony. I cannot stress how invaluable your information has been. I say again you are a genius whereas I am surrounded by idiots. I'm gonna get the garage to check the wishbone, tie road area and see where the damage is and get it replaced. I feel that if I leave it with Ali Burrows he will be competent in setting the cars geometry. Do you think his equipment is up to the job? He's really my last hope as so-called reputable tyre/alignment specialists are clearly not up to the job. What do you think? http://www.aliburrowsmotorsport.com/gallery_geo.html If not I'll be booking a ferry and making my way to WIM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 The only current issues with the car is the rear toe positions, the front camber is fine and the KPI is an error somewhere. What i would like to see is the current castor positions because this wasn't updated after the camber was changed.... "typical error" but i fear this will be low compared to the OSF, if proven the tie rod is bent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted February 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 One week on and another 4 wheel alignment performed, this time by Magowan Tyre and Auto in Mallusk. Here's the results: Are there any issues what I need to be aware of here Tony? The Caster is indeed lower on the NSF so that basically confirms that the wishbone is bent. Will have to be replaced. The car does feel much better, still not 100% but getting there - slowly! One thing I would like to ask is in one week how have the settings changed so drastically on my car? Take a comparison between the Final Values of the job done last weekend and the Previous Values of the latest job... I was told the reason why was because the car was set up at the front with the back not 'in spec' and basically the misaligned rear has 'drove' the front out of alignment...? Does that story hold water in your opinion? Take a look for yourselves: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 27, 2010 Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 NSF castor is low but only a concern if the car pulls left..... If yes the reason is the tie-rod AKA control arm not the wishbone. The KPI positions are not possible, so there's a glitch there? The disparities between the two measurements is due to known factors... 1: The adjusters performance within rubber bushings 2: Actual correction depends on bushing compliance and the "frictionless" plate the car sits on. 3: Air temperature changes results due to compliance. Real chassis corrections would be using shims, bushing adjustments are ok but open to errors as seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted February 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 The car does pull slightly to the left when braking. Nothing much more than you would feel under normal road camber conditions. When driving, the car is perfectly straight and the steering is well centred. It feels like it's getting back to the car it once was. Hopefully a new tie rod will finally get the car back to it's best... Can you explain to this idiot about the KPI position not being possible? According to the report it is within spec, +9"20 (+/- 30') Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 The KPI says NSF 12.41 OSF 9.21, this is not possible unless the cars been off a cliff. Also i've just noticed the NSF castor position is the same before and after the camber adjustment meaning the final castor position is not valid! Reason this is concerning is the camber adjustment from positive to negative will indirectly reduce the castor but to display the end figure the position needs to be measured again...... and it wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickT Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Another half a job.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Another half a job.......... Yep.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted February 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 The current KPI position is NSF +9'30 OSF +9'40... The old readings that you quoted were well off the scale, the current ones are within spec. Wherever the castor position is, what I can see is it is out of position. I'm getting a new Tie Rod fitted next week... Then it will be back in the alignment shop I pray to God for the last time to get the final adjustments. Hopefully everything will be all back in position... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorps Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 If your going to use Tonys settings for the IS200 then insist on them being done to the letter........er number! mine was a test car for the original set up of IS's and was spot on with even tyre wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted February 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 If your going to use Tonys settings for the IS200 then insist on them being done to the letter........er number! mine was a test car for the original set up of IS's and was spot on with even tyre wear. Once I get the car running properly then I will get it set up properly to the WIM settings. You would not believe the hassle that I've had just getting a wheel alignment performed that is even remotely satisfactory. This was taking it to the most reputable places with the best equipment that Belfast has to offer. It has not been easy just getting the car back within spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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