Little test

[Tony]

Just to see how we are evolving i wonder if team wim can find this answer...

 

Geometry is a realm within the X, Y, and Z plans but there is another one.

 

Can anyone find the missing dimension?

 

janey you cannot play since i think i told you this on Friday

[Jap Devil]

I would suggest time as the 4th dimension

[scorps]

F....Force

 

Whats my prize..

[Tony]

I would suggest time as the 4th dimension

That's what my boss says but no. Within Geometry there is a fourth dimension, this is the one that 99% of operations fail to see or understand.... X, Y, Z, ? what do you think.

[scorps]

I knew i was right

[Jap Devil]

Time is a fourth dimesnsion. Without time how do you quantify rate of change (of wear)?

 

Example:

 

Point A

 

New tyres, new brakes, new this and that etc.

 

After n thousand rotating hours.......

 

Point A'

 

Tyres and brakes are worn, wheels need balancing etc

 

Therefore the positions between A and A' have changed.

[Tony]

Time is a fourth dimesnsion. Without time how do you quantify rate of change (of wear)?

 

Example:

 

Point A

 

New tyres, new brakes, new this and that etc.

 

After n thousand rotating hours.......

 

Point A'

 

Tyres and brakes are worn, wheels need balancing etc

 

Therefore the positions between A and A' have changed.

Time is indeed a fourth dimension, (space and time) is a particular favorite theory topic of mine would you care to explore this with me in another thread?

 

As for this example maybe i need to come clean since the equations can easily (rightly) exceed the correct answer by perception.....

 

Question: find the missing denominator in X? Y? Z? =(?) the ? is the fourth dimension, it has it's own place but also contributes to X Y Z Geometrically.

[Tony]

This is the X, Y, Z

 

 

The missing dimension is 'F' (Force)

X+F

Y+F

Z+F

F Detectable or not to the driver is a major consideration in Geometry. The problem in the industry is that F cannot be seen it is born by X, Y, Z.

 

Each factor has a value.... say X5 + Y1= F6. The figures displayed from the Geometry can if read correctly conclude 'F' as a wear patten or a pull or whatever.

 

In the race fraternity the driver starts with 'F' the the chassis engineer evolves X, Y, Z in reply.... now that is real 4D Geometry.

[Jap Devil]

I beg to differ Tony, but Force is a resultant vector, determined by X, Y and Z

[Tony]

I beg to differ Tony, but Force is a resultant vector, determined by X, Y and Z

Force is not resultant vector unless dismissed or underestimated, whatever, as you say it is an inevitable consequence without depute that is manipulated if realized. Few in the tyre industry realise 'F'..... In fact i placed this very topic in front of my soon to be second in command in the future wim and said 'find the missing factor', in the end i had to explain 'F'

 

The reason for this thread is to add another level of awareness for team wim, even after a Geometry there can be problems if 'F' is not taken into consideration. Also i would like to move peoples understanding toward race set-ups which evolve from the 'F' down... Ok i could take this straight to the 'race section' here but this may overwhelm some members... small gentle steps seem better unless i am asked directly.

[Jap Devil]

Force ID a resultant vector....the laws of physics prove so. Likewise, Force cannot be construed as a fourth dimension.

 

For Force (or any other variable for that instance) to be considered absolute, it would need to appear as a single (primary) component entity, example for mass (Kg), time (S) or length (M). All other units (including Force) are a resultant of a number of other components - example, Velocity (speed) equals the rate of change of displacement, involving the primary components of length and time. Force comprises the components of velocity (length & time) and mass, so is therefore a tertiary component.

 

I will be happy to argue these facts until the cows come hooooome, but the only dimensions that occur in physics are X, Y, Z and time. And I didn't cut n paste this from some website!

[Tony]

Force ID a resultant vector....the laws of physics prove so. Likewise, Force cannot be construed as a fourth dimension.

 

For Force (or any other variable for that instance) to be considered absolute, it would need to appear as a single (primary) component entity, example for mass (Kg), time (S) or length (M). All other units (including Force) are a resultant of a number of other components - example, Velocity (speed) equals the rate of change of displacement, involving the primary components of length and time. Force comprises the components of velocity (length & time) and mass, so is therefore a tertiary component.

 

I will be happy to argue these facts until the cows come hooooome, but the only dimensions that occur in physics are X, Y, Z and time. And I didn't cut n paste this from some website!

I have no option other then to agree. The resultant force is usually broken up into it's X, Y, and Z components and moments....I think i need to work on my terminology and expand my knowledge in physics... Probably both

[Roger440]

And i think i should have paid more attention in maths class!

[Jap Devil]

Force ID a resultant vector....the laws of physics prove so. Likewise, Force cannot be construed as a fourth dimension.

 

For Force (or any other variable for that instance) to be considered absolute, it would need to appear as a single (primary) component entity, example for mass (Kg), time (S) or length (M). All other units (including Force) are a resultant of a number of other components - example, Velocity (speed) equals the rate of change of displacement, involving the primary components of length and time. Force comprises the components of velocity (length & time) and mass, so is therefore a tertiary component.

 

I will be happy to argue these facts until the cows come hooooome, but the only dimensions that occur in physics are X, Y, Z and time. And I didn't cut n paste this from some website!

I have no option other then to agree. The resultant force is usually broken up into it's X, Y, and Z components and moments....I think i need to work on my terminology and expand my knowledge in physics... Probably both

 

A Level Physics just about did it for me....no more suffering please

[scorps]

F....Force

 

Whats my prize..

 

 

[Tony]

And i think i should have paid more attention in maths class!

[Roger440]

And i think i should have paid more attention in maths class!

 

All the theroy with X and Y vectors etc is a bit heavy when you no good at maths. Maths is fairly important in engineering, and its my weak area! As a result i struggle to keep up sometimes.

[Tony]

And i think i should have paid more attention in maths class!

 

All the theroy with X and Y vectors etc is a bit heavy when you no good at maths. Maths is fairly important in engineering, and its my weak area! As a result i struggle to keep up sometimes.

Hand on examples exceed the engineers paper. Experience by example cannot be written in absolute terms, so i feel intelligent operators hold the overall edge

[Ahmet]

And i think i should have paid more attention in maths class!

I'm with you on this one Roger ............ waaaaaay over my head !

 

We'll let Tony and Mike battle it out

 

While Pete still thinks he is right .......... lol

[scorps]

Check it out s/face....you know im right its there in black an white

Im ahead of the game!!

[Tony]

F....Force

 

Whats my prize..

In truth you was right Pete..... We all voted (pm) not to let you know since the bumper sticker (I beat up wim) is not ready yet

 

Oh yeah...... your prize

 

 

Odd looking tea bag... we think it's from Taiwan

 

I will be kicking this over tonight, you are S, S, E of Hemel arent you

[IanF]

Waves his engineering degree. Maths rulz down wiv spellin.

 

X, Y, and Z and you are firmly in the realm of statics. Add in change ie time and you are into the much harder subject of dynamics. The math for dynamics gets hairy very fast. To make it worse real systems are non-linear. Very awkward stuff where one plus one does not make two At this point you end up reaching for a big super computer. Even then you have to build the damn thing cos the real world just doesn't seem to want to agree with the output of the computer models. Thats where experience and expertise comes in.

 

So no I wouldn't have picked F but then the whole topic of dynamics is enough to bring me and my computer out in a sweat!

[Tony]

Waves his engineering degree. Maths rulz down wiv spellin.

 

X, Y, and Z and you are firmly in the realm of statics. Add in change ie time and you are into the much harder subject of dynamics. The math for dynamics gets hairy very fast. To make it worse real systems are non-linear. Very awkward stuff where one plus one does not make two At this point you end up reaching for a big super computer. Even then you have to build the damn thing cos the real world just doesn't seem to want to agree with the output of the computer models. Thats where experience and expertise comes in.

 

So no I wouldn't have picked F but then the whole topic of dynamics is enough to bring me and my computer out in a sweat!

Would you agree with the placement of 'F'

X+F

Y+F

Z+F

as a resultant dynamic position.... and indeed moment so say the Governor

[IanF]

Waves his engineering degree. Maths rulz down wiv spellin.

 

X, Y, and Z and you are firmly in the realm of statics. Add in change ie time and you are into the much harder subject of dynamics. The math for dynamics gets hairy very fast. To make it worse real systems are non-linear. Very awkward stuff where one plus one does not make two At this point you end up reaching for a big super computer. Even then you have to build the damn thing cos the real world just doesn't seem to want to agree with the output of the computer models. Thats where experience and expertise comes in.

 

So no I wouldn't have picked F but then the whole topic of dynamics is enough to bring me and my computer out in a sweat!

Would you agree with the placement of 'F'

X+F

Y+F

Z+F

as a resultant dynamic position.... and indeed moment so say the Governor

 

I'll give a couple of responses. Mostly because I'm not quite sure where you are comming from with the desire to say X+F

 

1) I don't think any of my profs would have been happy about my playing fast and loose with the seperate ideas of position and force. When you try to solve problems in statics involving position and deflection you work exclusively with the forces. The positional information is incorporated into the force diagrams because force has magnitude, direction and a point of action. This point of action is the whole XYZ thing. These force diagrams always form a closed path as there can be no 'resultant' in a static system. Even though the overall aim of such diagrams is a zero the sizes and directions of the forces are instructive. Used to predict deflection and component failure.

 

2) Hooke's law.There is a well known relationship between Force and extension (position). Indeed since there are no physical materials that are infinately stiff. Hooke's law always applies, its just that often many of the deflections of the components that form a cars steering system can be ignored. Some of these ignored deflections have important implications such as the choice of toe-in over toe-out. But I dont have the experience or expertise to understand how these ignored deflections influence the behaviour of a car. They usually show up in the dynamics (where time T is involved). Shimmy is the only one that springs to mind.

 

If I ponder a bit more I may think of a third response to the 'X+F'

 

Force is important I can see why you want to include it as the unspoken fourth dimension. But I'm not sure where you are taking me. I hope the ride wont be too harsh (more dynamics *grin* )