adsmithy Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 Hello everyone, I registered on here as I figured it would be the best place to ask for advice.. I have Tein Flex coilovers and the car is sitting level a the momenet, using the Tein suggested ride height. Looking at the car from the side, it appears to sit higher at the front, but I believe this is just an illusion due to the design of the front arch, I'm pretty sure the car is sitting level front to rear. Now, I would like to drop the front a further 2-3mm and leave the rear the same. This would make the car appear level with even arch gap. Can anyone tell me if I would be likely to comprimise the handling by going lower at the front? I think I might be worrying about a small different perhaps I wouldn't notice, but I would appreciate some thoughts on this. The car is 100% road. It is also rear-wheel drive in case you didn't now. Thanks, adsmithy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 Hello adsmithy You would be safe lowering the front (5-10mm) without compromising the suspension's dynamics, 3-4mm is very secure. Depending on the units you have the only variable would be the pre-load, front/ rear, your limits are very safe..... no handling issues should arise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adsmithy Posted September 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 Hello adsmithy You would be safe lowering the front (5-10mm) without compromising the suspension's dynamics, 3-4mm is very secure. Depending on the units you have the only variable would be the pre-load, front/ rear, your limits are very safe..... no handling issues should arise. Well that's great news. 3mm is my maxium, as lowering the front further would result in "bump steer" problems. Pre-load is currently 4mm front & rear as per the Tein manual. They are the 6/5 kg spring rate.. I shall go ahead and set that up then ready for the alignment. Tony forgive my ignorance but is it you who does the alignment so to speak? You can PM if you wish as I am looking to get it setup by yourself if possible.. Cheers, adsmithy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 Hello adsmithy You would be safe lowering the front (5-10mm) without compromising the suspension's dynamics, 3-4mm is very secure. Depending on the units you have the only variable would be the pre-load, front/ rear, your limits are very safe..... no handling issues should arise. Well that's great news. 3mm is my maxium, as lowering the front further would result in "bump steer" problems. Pre-load is currently 4mm front & rear as per the Tein manual. They are the 6/5 kg spring rate.. I shall go ahead and set that up then ready for the alignment. Tony forgive my ignorance but is it you who does the alignment so to speak? You can PM if you wish as I am looking to get it setup by yourself if possible.. Cheers, adsmithy A few mm here and there will not generate bump issues, if you slam the car -70mm then we would have problems... Look at this -30mm from OEM example This car has visible bump issues as you can see.. As for the calibrations, i do them?.... despite the fact i own the company my preference is "spanners on"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adsmithy Posted September 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 Tony, A little confused. If that is -30mm and has bump issues, my car will be roughly -40 to 45mm I would think at the front, wouldn't my car suffer from bump problems more severe then the above example? EDIT: Not directly related, but what is your opinion on wheel spacers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-O Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 A few mm here and there will not generate bump issues, if you slam the car -70mm then we would have problems... Look at this -30mm from OEM example This car has visible bump issues as you can see.. As for the calibrations, i do them?.... despite the fact i own the company my preference is "spanners on"! Morning chaps I recognise that pic In case anyone is wondering what car it is, its the one featured in my signature. I remember when you first voiced your concerns with this Tone back when first had my car aligned in 2007 after all the bushing/coilovers had been fitted. I've basically set the front ride height as low as it will possibly go. I am not sure on the drop from standard ride height as i basically adjusted them with a tape measure on the car and went from there. The limiting factor when lowering my car in particular was the offset of my wheels (30 offset) and the clearance of the preload collar and its locking collar. The rim will foul the actual locking collar unless a 5mm spacer is used. Depending on what rims/coilovers are used the rideheight can be adjusted lower than what i have achieved with little fuss - as the coilovers dont tend to take up as much space near the wheels rim. Anyway - i posted a thread on the SXOC forum as soon as you mentioned it and it turns out quite a few people have had the same issue. Not may have got actual noticable symptoms as such, but its been noted that the angle might not be the best in the world. The reason why i haven't addressed this is because of 2 reasons... 1) I dont notice any issues when driving 2) If i replace them i want an uprated item thats built to handle UK roads/salt/grit etc etc... I believe fitting pillowball 'tuning' rods with exposed joints will wear out in no time, and require regular maintenance, and even if you did pop a greased rubber boot on, i am not particularly keen. I'd like something off the shelf that does the business with minimum of fuss. The closest i have come to a part that might fit the bill is the Tein adjustable tie rods and ends. They have a sealed joint from what i can tell so should be suitable for UK fast road applications. The only concern is - that they might address the horizontal length issue, but wont there still be an angle issue once the lengths been extended ? Will the bumpsteer risk be minimal once the lengths been extended? And also in terms of outright rod/joint failure when under load - will a longer rod reduce the risk in that respect if there is still an angle issue ? I am still keen to do the rods.. i've love to find something like the teins but maybe cheaper. I dont think such a product exists though So Adsmithy i think Tein rods and ends (purchased as two kits) would be the way to go if you do 'slam' the car.. unless you find something just as good for cheaper - in which case please do let me know !!! Tony : Since we last looked at this - i dont suppose you know of any adjustable rods/ends other than tein that have OEM style sealed joints that will do the job and be cheaper than teins ? Cheers ! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 I recall the perfect end on a car i set in STS but i'm dammed if i can remember where the owner got them from Basically they allowed the steering arm to be adjusted for toe and then a separate adjuster to adjust the pitch, at the time i didn't know what it was for or why the end had two adjusters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-O Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 I recall the perfect end on a car i set in STS but i'm dammed if i can remember where the owner got them from Basically they allowed the steering arm to be adjusted for toe and then a separate adjuster to adjust the pitch, at the time i didn't know what it was for or why the end had two adjusters. Thats a shame !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 I recall the perfect end on a car i set in STS but i'm dammed if i can remember where the owner got them from Basically they allowed the steering arm to be adjusted for toe and then a separate adjuster to adjust the pitch, at the time i didn't know what it was for or why the end had two adjusters. Thats a shame !! I know, i'm kicking myself..... i can see the car, the owner and the adjusters but i cannot remember the source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adsmithy Posted September 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 I'm going to set it -50mm F/R. Not the best cosmetically, but this is what Whiteline suggest. http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=2...+recommended%22 Unless you can convince me otherwise, I'd drop the front more to even it up, but alot of the guys over on SXOC experienced problems w/ handling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 I'm going to set it -50mm F/R. Not the best cosmetically, but this is what Whiteline suggest. http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=2...+recommended%22 Unless you can convince me otherwise, I'd drop the front more to even it up, but alot of the guys over on SXOC experienced problems w/ handling? Providing you give us the tools to calibrate the chassis ie: adjusters, then the actual trim height is of absolutely no concern to me whatsoever. It's my job to advance the handling and compliment the modifications you make, how you want the car to look is in your eye not mine. I can only assume the complaints from the guys in SXOC is due to poor calibration or lack of adjusters for the calibrator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-O Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'm going to set it -50mm F/R. Not the best cosmetically, but this is what Whiteline suggest. http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=2...+recommended%22 Unless you can convince me otherwise, I'd drop the front more to even it up, but alot of the guys over on SXOC experienced problems w/ handling? Providing you give us the tools to calibrate the chassis ie: adjusters, then the actual trim height is of absolutely no concern to me whatsoever. It's my job to advance the handling and compliment the modifications you make, how you want the car to look is in your eye not mine. I can only assume the complaints from the guys in SXOC is due to poor calibration or lack of adjusters for the calibrator. I think to be honest you should set them up as you would like in terms of ride height (within reason) and suitability for the roads you travel on. From what i know the most important thing when it comes to fitment of coilovers is that the preload is set CORRECTLY and the collars are nipped up properly. I have seen it a few times (even on a friends MK4 supra !) where the person setting the coilover has misunderstood what was involved in setting a coilover properly and therefore introducing various complications into the handling. I've seen people adjust their ride height by winding on a SHEDLOAD of preload... which means the spring is too compressed and the stroke of the coilover itself is affected which in turn then affects the on-road handling and causes instabilty. I have seen someone measure the coilover from different points on the car when adjusting and as a result all 4 corners were all over the shop (eeek!) ! Complete lashup !! I think thats more of an issue than the ride height to be honest, and probably could be confused with ride height causing problems ? Running level on the 200 obviously doesnt look great cosmetically, but bringing the front down to look tidier shouldnt be an issue. I've done just that and its made no difference in my opinion. Providing your sump/bumper isnt catch on speedhumps etc (lol) i would set it at a reasonable drop (within the adjustable and safe range of the suspension components you have fitted i.e having the wheel half tucked in the arch lowrider style isnt going to be good at all), set your preload properly, allowing the springs a full range of movement without rattling about (when compressed) and then get the geo done. At the end of the day you will know if you are taking the p**s if tone can't get the car on his ramp Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 @Steve Well said that man.... Another issue out there is members mimicking another members settings, they "wont work" on other cars unless you have exactly the same mods are that car!! We treat every car as unique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adsmithy Posted September 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 @SteveWell said that man.... Another issue out there is members mimicking another members settings, they "wont work" on other cars unless you have exactly the same mods are that car!! We treat every car as unique. Thanks for the advice Steve, Tony, would fitting uprated ARBs AFTER having the alignment done cause issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 @SteveWell said that man.... Another issue out there is members mimicking another members settings, they "wont work" on other cars unless you have exactly the same mods are that car!! We treat every car as unique. Thanks for the advice Steve, Tony, would fitting uprated ARBs AFTER having the alignment done cause issues? Not Geometrically although you can afford a different setup since there's less dynamic gains on the camber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adsmithy Posted September 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Tony, Car is ready now. I decided on -53mm front and -50mm rear. Looks good! Also fitted rear toe arms. So you should have enough adjustment now to get it right. Car already has rear camber adj. arms. I have also realised my passenger side front arch is slightly bent. Couldn't understand why I couldn't get the car flat left to right! I'll get in contact with you to arrange something.. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Tony, Car is ready now. I decided on -53mm front and -50mm rear. Looks good! Also fitted rear toe arms. So you should have enough adjustment now to get it right. Car already has rear camber adj. arms. I have also realised my passenger side front arch is slightly bent. Couldn't understand why I couldn't get the car flat left to right! I'll get in contact with you to arrange something.. Adrian We will get it flat .... Please give us a call when you are ready, it will be an interesting calibration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adsmithy Posted September 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Tony, Car is ready now. I decided on -53mm front and -50mm rear. Looks good! Also fitted rear toe arms. So you should have enough adjustment now to get it right. Car already has rear camber adj. arms. I have also realised my passenger side front arch is slightly bent. Couldn't understand why I couldn't get the car flat left to right! I'll get in contact with you to arrange something.. Adrian We will get it flat .... Please give us a call when you are ready, it will be an interesting calibration. Well that's the other thing I was going to suggest, we should give the car a good measure up and check it is actually sitting flat. I don't trust my dodgy measuring. I will give you a call tomorow afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Tony, Car is ready now. I decided on -53mm front and -50mm rear. Looks good! Also fitted rear toe arms. So you should have enough adjustment now to get it right. Car already has rear camber adj. arms. I have also realised my passenger side front arch is slightly bent. Couldn't understand why I couldn't get the car flat left to right! I'll get in contact with you to arrange something.. Adrian We will get it flat .... Please give us a call when you are ready, it will be an interesting calibration. Well that's the other thing I was going to suggest, we should give the car a good measure up and check it is actually sitting flat. I don't trust my dodgy measuring. I will give you a call tomorow afternoon. "Dodgy measuring" ...... wobbly ruler or something ..... Lets have her back and put the body audit kit on and see exactly how wobbly see is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-O Posted September 21, 2008 Report Share Posted September 21, 2008 Tony, Car is ready now. I decided on -53mm front and -50mm rear. Looks good! Also fitted rear toe arms. So you should have enough adjustment now to get it right. Car already has rear camber adj. arms. I have also realised my passenger side front arch is slightly bent. Couldn't understand why I couldn't get the car flat left to right! I'll get in contact with you to arrange something.. Adrian We will get it flat .... Please give us a call when you are ready, it will be an interesting calibration. Well that's the other thing I was going to suggest, we should give the car a good measure up and check it is actually sitting flat. I don't trust my dodgy measuring. I will give you a call tomorow afternoon. "Dodgy measuring" ...... wobbly ruler or something ..... Lets have her back and put the body audit kit on and see exactly how wobbly see is Please do post back - i'd be interested to hear how it went ! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adsmithy Posted September 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2008 The alignment went fine. Tony wasn't there unfortunately, he had to go home sick before I got there which was a shame as I'd liked to have a chat with him. I didn't ask about the body audit kit as the guys seemed to have alot on their plate. I went for the OEM alignment settings, the chaps thought that would be best for me to get used to it. I can pop back for a tweek at a later date I understand. When I do pop back it would be nice to see if the car is sitting flat, and to see if my arch is actually bent! The car is miles better anyway. It was so stable on the trip back. I haven't really chucked it into a corner as of yet, need some new tyres first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted September 21, 2008 Report Share Posted September 21, 2008 The alignment went fine. Tony wasn't there unfortunately, he had to go home sick before I got there which was a shame as I'd liked to have a chat with him. I didn't ask about the body audit kit as the guys seemed to have alot on their plate. I went for the OEM alignment settings, the chaps thought that would be best for me to get used to it. I can pop back for a tweek at a later date I understand. When I do pop back it would be nice to see if the car is sitting flat, and to see if my arch is actually bent! The car is miles better anyway. It was so stable on the trip back. I haven't really chucked it into a corner as of yet, need some new tyres first. Sorry mate i was of most off the week with a tummy bug, i couldn't even see my very ill mother, it was that kind of week. When you have time book her back in and let's explore some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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