Purvesh Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 Can you help doctor? :ph34r_anim: http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/Ex...M3027Medium.jpg http://forum.evotechnik.net/showthread.php?t=23910 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorps Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 My son looks after the comp so i'll have to ask him whats wrong as thats what he does for work. Right i went into the unknown for me anyway..lol I cleared all WIM and LOC from the cookies list then went back and registered and still the same thing, i have to log in everytime....i give up No but i can: Nothing in your post a 20p box of matches cant sort out :ph34r_anim: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 It is simply due to the camber.... The printed positions are wrong so the dynamic will be way wrong.... It's going to be cheaper in the long run to have a camber kit fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R P Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 Hi Purv and Tony, Thanks for you input. Do you mean the "final measurement" printed figures are wrong? I'm down in Kent, so quite a way from you. Will pay you a visit if this can't be rectified closer to home. Thanks, Ralph. PS. FYI this KDS was only done about 1,000 miles ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 Hi Purv and Tony, Thanks for you input. Do you mean the "final measurement" printed figures are wrong? I'm down in Kent, so quite a way from you. Will pay you a visit if this can't be rectified closer to home. Thanks, Ralph. PS. FYI this KDS was only done about 1,000 miles ago! Hello R P I can see where the problem lies but i'm pondering how you will deal with it..... Question: How much of the tyres width was involved in the wear...... About 10% maybe?..... If yes was the wear smooth. Q Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R P Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 Hi Tony, Yes, the inside 10% would be a good approximation. The wear was not smooth, not as smooth as one would expect just from negative camber. The wear on the very inside of the tyre was far greater than the rest of the "10%". I don't think there's much rubber left on the very inside. This is what lead me to beleive it was excessive toe-out due to worn suspension bushes. May I also point out that the car tram-lines quite badly, particularly on the motorway in grooves cut by commercial vehicles. This also lead me to beleive the bushes were worn. I will get a picture of each front tyre tomorrow afternoon. Thanks for your help. Ralph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purvesh Posted June 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 Hi Purv and Tony, Thanks for you input. Do you mean the "final measurement" printed figures are wrong? I'm down in Kent, so quite a way from you. Will pay you a visit if this can't be rectified closer to home. Thanks, Ralph. PS. FYI this KDS was only done about 1,000 miles ago! Ralph, I'm from Kent aswell, but to get it right by a specialist you have to travel. Trust me, I've made the trip a number of times... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Hi Tony, Yes, the inside 10% would be a good approximation. The wear was not smooth, not as smooth as one would expect just from negative camber. The wear on the very inside of the tyre was far greater than the rest of the "10%". I don't think there's much rubber left on the very inside. This is what lead me to beleive it was excessive toe-out due to worn suspension bushes. May I also point out that the car tram-lines quite badly, particularly on the motorway in grooves cut by commercial vehicles. This also lead me to beleive the bushes were worn. I will get a picture of each front tyre tomorrow afternoon. Thanks for your help. Ralph. Any pictures available yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alnug Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 just wanted to add..you said it's not a smooth wear.....what dampers did they fit the springs to and how old were they? It's actually quite easy to find whether the bushes are at fault...with a machine such as the Hunter ones it's very easy to set up the equipment (unlike some other four wheel alignment machines!)...basically do the alignment and then drive off and drive back on and read the specs again...if the bushings are out somewhere it should show....correct Tony?......it's machines such as this that make it possible to diagnose these things quickly in my view.....that is assuming that the Hunter has great repeatability :ph34r_anim: which i no doubt it does! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 just wanted to add..you said it's not a smooth wear.....what dampers did they fit the springs to and how old were they? It's actually quite easy to find whether the bushes are at fault...with a machine such as the Hunter ones it's very easy to set up the equipment (unlike some other four wheel alignment machines!)...basically do the alignment and then drive off and drive back on and read the specs again...if the bushings are out somewhere it should show....correct Tony?......it's machines such as this that make it possible to diagnose these things quickly in my view.....that is assuming that the Hunter has great repeatability :ph34r_anim: which i no doubt it does! All cars live most of their life in an area called "worn". This area is the period between new and..... well broke to be polite. Nevertheless an excessively worn component will make the calibration pointless sooooo... My initial question to the owner is "any noises, knocks or alike", if the answer is no then i continue with the calibration. The reason i ask these questions is that i do not want to jack the car up and violate the virgin position of the suspension. Once measured i apply pressure to various areas and watch the screen for any abnormal gains. This particular car has some odd issues.... The camber "loss" after lowering defies lowering laws. The Toe positions are consistent with lowering but since the wear would be lateral much more tread would have been involved, not just the 10% said. The problem with this car is the "Toe-Out-on-Turns" or TOOT as seen on the printout... See example> It's a difficult angle to explain..... But i'll have a go anyway.... TOOT is the accentuated lock gain from the inner wheel as the steering is turned. By convention the inner gain would be 1 degree 30' on the inner if the outer wheel is at 20 degrees. On this BMW the TOOT value gain is 58', so if the outer wheel is at 20 degrees the inner should be around 20 degrees 58'. It's not , the inner wheel is 22 degrees!! ... (now things get complicated) As TOOT or lock lets say is initiated the camber positions migrate in opposing positions on the front tyres, the castor on the inner wheel extends and the outer wheel retracts. The position for the camber and castor is dependant on the TOOT activating the swapping of positions. The problem with this car is the camber but the "dead ahead"camber is not the criminal, it's the end position of the camber on the corner due to the TOOT and castor. A solution for this is impossible without the aid of my modified car software, so i would need to measure the chassis and go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R P Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 Hi Tony, Photobucket wasn't playing ball last night, but have some more pics and info: The whole KDS sheet... they've clearly chosen E36 M3 Coupe, regardless of the targets: Here's some photos of the tyres, Front right: Front left: On Friday I called BMW customer services to try and obtain the geometry from a "Head Office" source. The technical department I spoke to didn't have the info and couldn't suggest anything further. A non-specialist (but proactive) garage checked the bushes on the car, but these appear to be absolutely fine. They refered me to a specialist performance garage, mostly dealing in jap cars. They were equally surprised at the situation and the car is going into them in a weeks time. Your last post was very interesting reading and I'm sure I've followed. What is classed as a turn? Half lock? The car feels like it wanders over the road too much, and I am sure this is linked with the inner tyre problem. Could this be insufficient toe in? When this is rectified, I will get the car inspected from someone like yourself. Thanks again, Ralph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 Where did the term "a turn? Half lock?" come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R P Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 I just wondered how much lock is used for "toe out on turn". Didn't know whether this was half lock, full lock, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 I just wondered how much lock is used for "toe out on turn". Didn't know whether this was half lock, full lock, etc. Ok, yes i understand now, sorry. By convention the TOOT measurement is taken with the outer wheel at 20 degrees. Further increments are only visible to the manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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