Paul XE

You've never heard of Marcos?? Where have you been man?!!!!!!! lol

Again, the figures will have to wait until I get the hubs back from Hi-spec. I may not even have time to recheck the geo before the track day but after that I plan to do a FULL geo check and post the figures up on here. For the track day I will prob run the same geo as before (camber 2 deg, caster 4 deg, KPI 13 deg, 0 toe on the front) and have a play with the rear to see if I can contol it a little more, then if I achieve that I can go back to the front and try and reduce the KPI and bumpsteer, and increase Ackerman angle.

That looks like a very neat and tidy conversion, well packed in there though. Bet it could be a handful though!

Please wait a few moments for Video to Load!

Wow!! This thread is getting busy now! Checking bumpsteer is not a problem, as I made a gauge up to measure it. If anyone would like to make one for themselves, let me know and I can show you how very easily and cheaply. Also, before discovering this site and forum my knowledge of geo only spanned camber, caster, SAI and toe. I'm learning, but very slowly! I do find this subject very interesting and have a passion to learn more and try and make the car handle the best I can.

A few of those crashes reminded me of this one: Please wait a few moments for Video to Load!

OK, will do. May take a week or so though as the car is on axle stands with the hubs off as they are away at Hi-spec having the brakes made. HMS: I value everyone's opinion, as its very easy for me to overlook the obvious sometimes! (Cant see the wood for the trees lol!) Not only that, I would like to think that people may find this thread interesting and learn from it, like I'm doing!

OK, that makes sense. Also, I have failed to mention that the steering arms fitted are from a Metro which are longer and angled in more giving more ackerman. Here they are compared to a mini one: I will have to re-measure ackerman to find out what it is as my memory fails me. If its not close to 2 deg 30' at 20 deg, I could possibly heat them and bend them in to obtain those figures.

Not ignorant all all, it's my poor method of explanation. As i see thing well have a very ( declined ) SAI that's not easy to correct, the castor is a done deal as is the camber. The scrub radius is in the wrong place and you have spacers fitted for mechanical reasons.... Oh and bump steer. My thoughts was to allow the migration of the camber during a turn to be accelerated, this will improve the SR keeping it under the steer axis. Ok, I think we have gone past the limits on my knowledge on the subject! I will try and read up to try and make sense of what you just said, but if you could tell me how you plan to do that I will try and make it work mechanically.

I'm sorry, and I may sound ignorant, but that made no sense to me at all!! What are you thinking of doing?

Apparently he has had 4 going all at once before. I saw him do 3 when I was up at the Autosport show.

There are bends in them both ways, down and in. These are older pics when I still used a track rod end, steering arms are the same though.

Yes I can do. I am using 1/2" UNF rose joints instead of track rod ends to try and reduce bump steer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc1mN1BfjxY...eos=ndStuCWee_0

I understand... Students just get in the way anyway. I'm up for this Paul, it will be an enlightening meet bringing our vision of the "geometry" to the four front. Not only that, we would not expect you to put up with students who may not appreciate your knowledge, where as we will and then pass that knowledge onto them. This will not be happening until the summer when we get a few weeks without students (around July/Aug time) Thanks again Tony

Yeah, 10mm ones giving a total wheel offest of 7mm. Its the lowest offset I can run without having to totally re design and make the subframe. The other option would be to make all new suspension arms (longer) moving the hub further into the wheel. Either way, an awful lot of work!

We dont necessarily want an official course with tests etc, just a bit of a refreshment on the subject really. We all have a fairly good understanding on the subject but I certainly would like to improve my knowledge and go a bit more in-depth. Also, it would just be lecturers, no students. I could also bring along the scheme of work and cirriculum we have to follow if needed.

Ok. I have another track day booked for the 29th of this month. I will leave things as they are for the min and try and tweak the rear end to increase grip without inducing too much understeer! After that I am planning to remove the subframe and carry out a couple of mods to it and make some jigs up for the suspension arms to ensure they all start off the same length both sides. Then I will try and get as close to the above settings and see how things go. I got a feeling I am going to strugle to achieve 5 deg KPI with the standard hubs though . . !!

Fair play Tony, nice one. Do you offer any training to independant people? As I've said before, Im a lecturer at a motor vehicle college and would love to spend a day at your premises and pick your brains!! If so, how much would you charge for something like that? At the Lecturer level i charge nothing because i'm keen to educate this sorry area, reads odd in a business sense but that's how i feel. Are you sure Tony?? I'm sure the academy I teach at won't mind paying you for giving up your time! We are based in Bristol so we would like to spend a bit of time with you, and if its ok with you I'm sure a few of the other lecturers here would like to learn from you. We teach apprentices to level 3 covering toe, camber, caster and KPI/SAI and it would be nice just to improve on our knowledge and update it.

Fair play Tony, nice one. Do you offer any training to independant people? As I've said before, Im a lecturer at a motor vehicle college and would love to spend a day at your premises and pick your brains!! If so, how much would you charge for something like that?

Tony, quick question: What would be the effect of reducing the KPI on my set-up?? Say 4 deg Castor, 2 deg Camber, 10 deg KPI. I can't help thinking 13 deg is too much, although it is helping to reduce the scrub radius.

Looks very tidy Tony, good buy! Am interested to hear the before and after settings on the geo.

Thanks for the comments Tony, and thanks for all your help. A bit of advice and comfirmation of what I was thinking was right was what I needed to get the car handling like I always knew it could. I still think there is more to come with a bit of tweaking here and there, but the fundementals of the chassis has a good starting point. Just a couple of things to add though: 1) Would be thread be better off in a build diary section as I can carry it on as I change things here and there . . . . and 2) how come only Tony ever replies to my posts??!!!!lol

well, as promised. . . the report! To be honest, it could have gone better!! On the first warm up lap I lost the back end coming out of the chicane due to cold tyres and the back end too stiff (I think) which resulted in the bootlid flying off and landing on the track. After this I calmed down and got into my stride and I was really pleased with how the car handled and drove. I could not feel any real understeer under any condition and it pulled in a resonably straight line. The only thing that did sort of let it down was the back end. It felt quite loose and not really under control, and this was highlighted by the first lap incident and about half way though the session (lap 4-5) I went into a fast right hander in the wrong gear (4th instead of 3rd) at 95mph and the back end stepped out right the way around the corner! I think this is due to the back is set too stiff (450lbs springs, anti roll bar on its stiffest setting and 18psi in Toyo 888's) so I'm going to leave this alone for the next track day and see if it happens again, then soften the ARB, maybe soften the dampers if that doesn't work and if that still isnt soft enough I have got some 350lbs springs. I just have to be careful not to make it too soft so it induces understeer. Also, unfortunatly on the last but one lap I went to overtake another car on the right and just as I come up to go past he moved over and I had know where to go apart from the grass on the in-field at 100mph which resulted in ripping the front splitter off and bending two of the suspension arms on the front, so not a very happy bunny! Here are some pics that will hopefully speak a thousand words!