Botched Geometry

[ithier]

Just had an 8 angle geometry alignment done at a local garage on a Lexus IS200. When I picked it up the steering wheel was mis-aligned and 2 weeks later the front tyres are wearing horribly. Took it back and complained but the garage are saying I must have hit a pot-hole and they are refusing to rectify it as the "readings" on their machine (a Beissbarth ML4600) show it was perfect when it left them. I've just written them a formal complaint quoting the Supply of good and Services Act 1982 but don't have much hope that they will respond favourably. I'm preparing myself for a court battle. Any advice or stories of similar situations appreciated.

 

I wish I lived nearer WIM

[Tony]

Hello and welcome to wim.

 

Your situation reads obviously desperate. Was you given a printout from the calibration. Reason i ask is all calibration positions are only accepted once the owner agrees to the calibration settings made visible on the hard copy printout.

 

If you was not offered this then any calibration positions were not agreed by you as a final conclusion to the set-up.

[ithier]

Hello and welcome to wim.

 

Your situation reads obviously desperate. Was you given a printout from the calibration. Reason i ask is all calibration positions are only accepted once the owner agrees to the calibration settings made visible on the hard copy printout.

 

If you was not offered this then any calibration positions were not agreed by you as a final conclusion to the set-up.

 

Thanks Tony for the welcome and the response. A hard copy print out was provided "for information" and left in the car. We collected the car from outside the garage after closing time so the positions were not "agreed". Furthermore 2 of the positions have an asterisk next to them suggesting to me that they were still out of tollerance after the adjustment. If I don't get a favourable response to my letter I will put that to the owner.

 

When I spoke to the garage owner on Monday I overheard the person that carried out the work say that he thought the car may have been in a shunt. I note from one of your earlier posts that the 3rd most common cause of steering wheel mis-alignment following a geometry set is an underlying fault with the car. I'm starting to think that may be it as the tyres have been wearing badly for years despite numerous alignments at various garages.

 

My case is looking stronger now because

1 - They didn't formally report their suspicions of a shunt to me

2 - They didn't stop the work as soon as they had these suspicions

3 - Their calibration printout is effectively worthless due to an existing underlying problem that they had identified.

4 - I didn't agree the calibration positions after the work was done.

5 - Not all the positions on the report were in tolerance

 

Thanks again

[Tony]

Any display of the final positions will speak volumes to us. Is it possible you can make this happen?

 

I would like to see the final front (camber/castor/toe) positions.

[ithier]

Any display of the final positions will speak volumes to us. Is it possible you can make this happen?

 

I would like to see the final front (camber/castor/toe) positions.

 

This is the report they left for us after they did the initial work

http://www.halls-online.co.uk/first.jpg

 

When I took it back to them 2 weeks later this is what they found the settings to be

http://www.halls-online.co.uk/second.jpg

 

Thanks again for looking

[Tony]

The KPI changes without any movement in the camber positions is impossible. So feel they have an error in the castor/kpi measurement sweep.

The toe positions are dire and without explanation. Assuming the figures displayed are the final positions then you have a steering wheel that's (left hand down) and tyre wear on the front inners. Can you confirm this!

[ithier]

The KPI changes without any movement in the camber positions is impossible. So feel they have an error in the castor/kpi measurement sweep.

The toe positions are dire and without explanation. Assuming the figures displayed are the final positions then you have a steering wheel that's (left hand down) and tyre wear on the front inners. Can you confirm this!

 

spot on. wheel is left hand down and wear is on front inners.

 

If I understand you correctly, you feel there could be a problem with their machine?

 

I've added the rear readings to the images in case they are of interest.

http://www.halls-online.co.uk/first.jpg

http://www.halls-online.co.uk/second.jpg

 

Clearly the garage think I've done something to the car to cause this but I know that's not the case because it was like it the minute I collected it. Beyond what you have already mentioned is there anything I can say to them that might help them realise that there could be another explanation. They're adamant their machine doesn't lie.

[Tony]

Visit 1 (after positions)

NS

KPI 7d 24'

Camber - 28'

Toe + 9'

 

OS

KPI 9d 01'

Camber -43'

Toe + 8'

 

Visit 2

NS

KPI 11d 12'

Camber -29'

Toe +31'

 

OS

KPI 7d 39'

Camber -49'

Toe -1d 27'

 

The slight changes in the camber positions between visits is normal within reason.

The changes in the KPI during adjustments is normal for your car. Changes in the KPI between visits is not possible.

The changes in the front toe between visits is possible if one wheel suffered an impact but unlikely on both wheels and suspicious that one wheel is + and the other wheel -.

 

wim's thoughts

I feel they have a problem with their radius plates. These are free moving ball bearing plates the tyres stand on during the calibration.

If they are not maintained then the target positions will be fictitious in particular the Toe since the adjustment will be wound up in the tyre sidewall.

 

On your initial set-up the most severe adjustment was to the OSF camber. The would have displaced the Toe a huge amount toward the positive needing correction toward the negative. On the second visit the OSF Toe is to far negative. So i feel the initial adjustment was over corrected into the tyre sidewall.

[ithier]

Thanks Tony you're a star. That even makes sense to me If you have no objection I'll pass that on to them and let you know their response.

 

This morning I actually spoke to the mechanic who did the work who admitted that at the time of making the adjustments he had a suspicion that the NS king pin might be slightly deformed but that he was unable to tell due to shadows (not sure what he means by shadows). He also said that when he test drove it after making the adjustments he felt there was something not quite right and that it didn't drive like he thought a Lexus should!

 

So one more question for you . Could a deformed king pin be an alternative explanation for a large KPI change and no camber change between the 2 visits?

[Tony]

Thanks Tony you're a star. That even makes sense to me If you have no objection I'll pass that on to them and let you know their response.

 

This morning I actually spoke to the mechanic who did the work who admitted that at the time of making the adjustments he had a suspicion that the NS king pin might be slightly deformed but that he was unable to tell due to shadows (not sure what he means by shadows). He also said that when he test drove it after making the adjustments he felt there was something not quite right and that it didn't drive like he thought a Lexus should!

 

So one more question for you . Could a deformed king pin be an alternative explanation for a large KPI change and no camber change between the 2 visits?

The measurement of the KPI is done with the wheels on a 10 or 20 degree lock. If there was an issue with the plates then it's reasonable the lock was also incorrect.

[ithier]

Thanks Tony you're a star. That even makes sense to me If you have no objection I'll pass that on to them and let you know their response.

 

This morning I actually spoke to the mechanic who did the work who admitted that at the time of making the adjustments he had a suspicion that the NS king pin might be slightly deformed but that he was unable to tell due to shadows (not sure what he means by shadows). He also said that when he test drove it after making the adjustments he felt there was something not quite right and that it didn't drive like he thought a Lexus should!

 

So one more question for you . Could a deformed king pin be an alternative explanation for a large KPI change and no camber change between the 2 visits?

The measurement of the KPI is done with the wheels on a 10 or 20 degree lock. If there was an issue with the plates then it's reasonable the lock was also incorrect.

 

Thanks Tony,

Do you have space on this Saturday (25th) to book the car in so that WIM can put it right?

[Tony]

Thanks Tony you're a star. That even makes sense to me If you have no objection I'll pass that on to them and let you know their response.

 

This morning I actually spoke to the mechanic who did the work who admitted that at the time of making the adjustments he had a suspicion that the NS king pin might be slightly deformed but that he was unable to tell due to shadows (not sure what he means by shadows). He also said that when he test drove it after making the adjustments he felt there was something not quite right and that it didn't drive like he thought a Lexus should!

 

So one more question for you . Could a deformed king pin be an alternative explanation for a large KPI change and no camber change between the 2 visits?

The measurement of the KPI is done with the wheels on a 10 or 20 degree lock. If there was an issue with the plates then it's reasonable the lock was also incorrect.

 

Thanks Tony,

Do you have space on this Saturday (25th) to book the car in so that WIM can put it right?

I have 12.30pm available..... I take it you have given up with them then?

 

It would be wise to inform them you are taking the car elsewhere and if found to be wrong you expect a refund or them to pay for the corrections.

[ithier]

I have 12.30pm available..... I take it you have given up with them then?

 

It would be wise to inform them you are taking the car elsewhere and if found to be wrong you expect a refund or them to pay for the corrections.

 

12:30 would be good if you could book it in the name of Hall. Thanks for the advice. I will inform them.

 

They show no sign of capitulation yet. In my 2 letters to them so far I have only given options to refund or pay for someone else to make the corrections. Reason being I don't trust them to get it right. The tyre wear is too excessive to put off the repairs any longer and I've given them every chance to do right by me.

[Tony]

I have 12.30pm available..... I take it you have given up with them then?

 

It would be wise to inform them you are taking the car elsewhere and if found to be wrong you expect a refund or them to pay for the corrections.

 

12:30 would be good if you could book it in the name of Hall. Thanks for the advice. I will inform them.

 

They show no sign of capitulation yet. In my 2 letters to them so far I have only given options to refund or pay for someone else to make the corrections. Reason being I don't trust them to get it right. The tyre wear is too excessive to put off the repairs any longer and I've given them every chance to do right by me.

 

Ok you are booked. The centre details are in wim-web under contacts.

[ithier]

Cheers will see you Saturday. You're a mere 124.1 miles away!

 

Thought this snippet from the garage's reply to my first letter might be of interest.

 

"Our opinion after looking at the readings is the vehicle has taken a heavy nock on the o/s/f wheel under driving causing the reading to go out of specification.

 

This clearly has happened between the 1st August 2007 and 15th August 2007 whilst driving the vehicle.

 

The idea of printouts are we can clearly see the readings, no guess work 100% accurate readings in black and white."

 

They should get my second letter tomorrow....

[Tony]

Cheers will see you Saturday. You're a mere 124.1 miles away!

 

Thought this snippet from the garage's reply to my first letter might be of interest.

 

"Our opinion after looking at the readings is the vehicle has taken a heavy nock on the o/s/f wheel under driving causing the reading to go out of specification.

 

This clearly has happened between the 1st August 2007 and 15th August 2007 whilst driving the vehicle.

 

The idea of printouts are we can clearly see the readings, no guess work 100% accurate readings in black and white."

 

They should get my second letter tomorrow....

Technically they are correct in saying the printouts are "correct'ish" Nevertheless they fail to explain how the impact only involved the front toe position?

 

1degree 27' amounts to about 9mm.... quite an impact.... So how come the other angles are more or less the same?

[ithier]

I've had a negative response to my second letter. And they've failed to explain the readings as I asked them to. If you're curious you can see it (with identifying details removed) here

http://www.halls-online.co.uk/page1.jpg

http://www.halls-online.co.uk/page2.jpg

 

I can understand their scepticism, after all we did stupidly take 11 days to report it to them and as you say some (not all) of the readings could be explained away by a knock (albeit a very big one). My problem is persuading them that there could be another explanation especially as apparently no one else has reported a problem to them, which in his shoes I would find suspicious too. I don't think I'm going to get anywhere with these guys I'll sleep on it and decide what to do next.

[Tony]

I've had a negative response to my second letter. And they've failed to explain the readings as I asked them to. If you're curious you can see it (with identifying details removed) here

http://www.halls-online.co.uk/page1.jpg

http://www.halls-online.co.uk/page2.jpg

 

I can understand their scepticism, after all we did stupidly take 11 days to report it to them and as you say some (not all) of the readings could be explained away by a knock (albeit a very big one). My problem is persuading them that there could be another explanation especially as apparently no one else has reported a problem to them, which in his shoes I would find suspicious too. I don't think I'm going to get anywhere with these guys I'll sleep on it and decide what to do next.

 

Unless you are lying then they are hiding behind the truth.... Either though ignorance or liability... "Agreed!"

 

Can i ask you this... "Why" does the IS have built in adjusters?.... Did Lexus anticipate every owner will crash the car?..... Or is it the fact that the design of the suspension is naturally subject to movement, requiring natural correction.

 

The lack of explanation regarding the discrepancies is because they cannot explain them!...... One last thing. Just because they say no other complaints have been made is hardly justification to dismiss your complaint. Or reason for you to agree.

[ithier]

I'm going to write them one more letter and give them the option of mediation and another chance to give their explanation of the readings.

 

Tony,

 

Can you give me an idea of cost for the geometry check and adjust on Sat? I'm a LOC gold member if that makes any difference. Thanks.

[Tony]

I'm going to write them one more letter and give them the option of mediation and another chance to give their explanation of the readings.

 

Tony,

 

Can you give me an idea of cost for the geometry check and adjust on Sat? I'm a LOC gold member if that makes any difference. Thanks.

The fee is £85+ vat. The fine-tune 2000 miles later is free (including any adjustments) All non-club members would need to pay for the adjustments on the fine-tune.