bojcistv

Yes I thought the same although there are no any logical explanation for strut mount role in vibrations transferring without any other signs who are characteristic for worn strut mount. The true is that I didn't change them together with the shocks but in that time they looked good to me. The fact is vibration depends definitively by outside temp and tire pressure by whom vertical stiffness of the wheel set is changing where forwardly and consequently changes an wheel hop frequency. Wheel hop frequency should be damped by car's suspension system and something in my car doesn't work its job as it should as well! I changed shocks, hydro-bearings on the lower arm and there are very few other things left to change....any way I went to buy those strut mounts since it is not so expensive (38 Eurs for both sides) and we will see if it will bring some improvement. I am just wondering if someone have had anything similar and if it were mounts as vibrations cause it would anchor my thoughts about Ford as something very unusual and specific in car diagnose and finding culprits.

Well technically yes there are but common word for that set is top mount (consist rubber part with bearing).

Well I was at one very experienced Ford mechanic few days ago and he said the trouble isn't in drive shafts at all. He points at top strut mounts and convinced me to go and buy it in a store so he will change it in wednesday (fortunately it is not so expensive / 38 Euros for both sides) I really can't see how that vibration is connected to the strut mounts since I can't see any of usual symptoms of worn mounts so far. Or it is possible as well since when we get to the Ford everything is in play!?

Yes they have enough grease inside. I will try to change it during the next month or so and to see what will be changed (if it will...).

I haven't been here for awhile. I've tried to find those on car wheel balancer but no one here didn't even hear for such machine. Any way I noticed something very interesting but I am not sure where to put it in. So, vibrations between 120/140 km/h depends on temperature in a way higher outside temp somehow stronger the vibrations??? I am almost sure it is inner CV joint since I feel more vibrations under accelerating (between 120 to 140 km/h) than on the constant driving but I can't figure out what suspension or drive line part is laying in line with temperature? I remember Tony you talked about some temp and chassis frequency load but I must say I didn't catch it all so if you can to repeat a lesson to an pupil who didn't pay necessary attention on the class.

Sounds logical Nick and thanks for advice. I will try to do as you said although I didn't understand the part how to balance the wheel on the car. I don't have that kind of machine and there is no any of it in the region here....I would like to have it but I don't....Is there any alternative to that machine? You used it when you dealt with that Polo you mentioned?

I know for that type of balance machine but it was in use long long times ago here. I think any way that balance is ok since I was on Hunter machinery and there weren't found anything run out or bad. It is matter of either differential (drive line) as source of an unexpected vibration or suspension where something in that can't damp normal, inside tolerance, vibration. I really can't see what else could be. Just to mention I measured radial and lateral run out with dial gauge and I didn't find anything run out in out of tolerances (in fact results on both wheels were deep inside tolerances). So I don't think there would be found better results with this on car balance machine than it had with conventional methods....even if I would dig out one here in the region. P.S. Very interesting video any way. Maybe it would be interesting just to see if it will occur while rotating like that. I tried to simulate that with one by time wheel jacked up and rotate more than 140 km/h. We didn't find anything unusual there....Everything was still and smooth....

I don't know how it could be isolate on rolling road any way...I will see to change those tripod bearings and how it will get affect on it. After that maybe i will try to change complete lower arms just to see if they have any influence.

Yes they do use that plates. But they use them mostly to determine whether your shocks good or not. And as I know those machines are pretty accurate. On my last testing they didn't find anything bad there. In fact, suspension on Mondeo is rock solid and there are anything with play in there. I have checked it with very experienced Ford mechanic and we didn't find anything, only thing we could imagine as vibrations cause that left unchecked or tested is differntial. But we doubt in even that since there are any noise or something like that in there which is main sign differential is gone. I will see to change those bearings on the left inner joint tripod to see what will happen.

I thoughts about bushings too Tony. Although I had replaced them in November 2012. where vibrations were put under some control. I mean there were some of it but nothing significant and I thought it might be due unbalanced wheels. I don't know how it is possible they have become worn in such short period of time. I remember they were OEM (no matter I bought them in Febi bilstein box) and we aligned them as previous were placed on the lower arm. I am confused with absence of any kind of noise (but wind and tires on the road only) too as I heard and learned that differential kind of vibrations are followed and accompanied with some noise or harshness. Yet, it is possible that there aren't any causes of the vibrations out of specifications but something might gone wrong with the components of the suspension who takes part in the damping those normal wheel inputs from the road. So the first thing related to that possible scenario is bushings where I saw what influence they have on picking wheels input. So it is all nicely explained here: http://www.vibratesoftware.com/ and i like how people gave an simple explanation of it.... All automotive vibrations have three basic components: Source - The source of the vibration. Most of the time the source of the vibration is a rotating component that is out-of-round or out-of-balance. In these cases, the source of the vibration can be repaired. Engines however, have vibrations which are a natural part of the engine running. If the engine is the source of the vibration, it cannot be repaired because it is not broken. Instead, the transfer path for the vibration must be repaired. Transfer Path - The transfer path can be anything that is connected to, or touches both the vibration source and the responding component that the driver notices or feels. It can be the suspension system, a motor mount, transmission mount, body mount, exhaust system, propshaft, running boards, etc. Whenever normal engine vibrations are felt in the passenger compartment, the transfer path should be repaired rather than the source. Responding Component - The responding component is the part that the driver notices or feels is vibrating. It can be the floor, the seat, the steering wheel, the sun visor, the dash or instrument panel, etc

Well I must disappoint you Tony about oil viscosity vs anything since I forgot to mention I changed the transmission fluid cause there were present some issues with gear changing during the cold mornings . During the work on changing we didn't notice any metal parts (even the tiniest ones) in the replaced fluid which should be inside if the differential tooth, pinion gears or I don't know what or something like that were worn or so. Also we didn't notice anything strange with the inner teeth on diff side either left or right. One thing left to check....I changed both drive shafts directly taken from the scrap yard but on the left one I hadn't changed tripod bearings which were done on the right drive shaft. We couldn't see any plays on that side in the inner joint but who knows how it behaves under common rail-high output torque-diesel engine load. It seems there is some bit amplified vibrations under the acceleration from 120 to 140 km/h which I could connect with worn inner joint bearings (or its tripod or more likely inner joint cup). I don't know..... Like Tony said it is vibrate and frequency related and as long as i know it is pretty precise science so I will try to dig out either source of the vibration or the vibrations path....since the suspension seems to be pretty stiff and without any plays it could be only either differential or hydro-bushing on the lower arms (you couldn't believe what influence those liquid filled bushings has on the vibrations damping...unbelievable). So, as I changed hydro-bushings what else stayed than diff and left side inner joint bearings. Definitely, bearings are more likely to be replaced since it is one hour job and not so expensive. Any other propositions? P.S. Thanks you again for inputs. If I solve this I am moving to the West since during this year and a half while I have digged out everything related to my trouble I found millions of people with same or similar troubles on every types of car so I might be a millionaire from helping people with vibrations related problems. This business could be registrated also as humanitarian or psycho therapy one since I know how this can be frustrating.....

Yes that's the proof I have done everything need to solve it but i didn't manage to find source of vibrations. It seems that no one here can't test differential without removing it of the engine bay. And that's long and expensive work to do so I can't afford it at all. Last night I was drove home by the highway and vibrations range was moved in higher speeds I presume it is because I inflated tires on higher pressure so it affect only on the speed where vibrations are occurring. I could feel those shaking under my feet (no matter they are on the pedals) like all floor vibrate along with seats.... Few days ago my wife drove the car and I was on the passenger side where I could clearly feel vibrations through the floor and seats too. It is really clear they are sourced on the front end...... Interesting thing is that car is really stiff and really nice to drive but on that certain range of speed I am feeling like something will get of the car how it vibrate......ufff...

Ok. Taking things back..... Vibs occurred on august 2012., almost three years after I had bought it (I bought the car in November 2009), while I was getting back home from the near town and while I was driving on the highway. Vibs were like car shake up and down between 120 and 140 km/h not like wheels were out of balance. On the first I thought it must be balance but it was pretty strange since in April 2011 I had bought brand new 4 Uniroyal Rain expert tires. I was at the garage to re-balance them but nothing had happen. Few days after that I had noticed some new vibs on the lower speeds, while I had accelerated from 80-100 km/h and they were like ones that comes out of run out wheels. After almost three month of seeking and trying to discover what is going on finally in the November that year, we found that hydro-bushes on the front lower arms were culprits for those strange up and down vibs (it was like your shocks don't works when you hit certain speed..very strange whole car vibration). It was new thing for me as well as for my mechanic who didn't know for those kinds of liquid filled bushings designed to pick up vibrations on precisely defined frequency and amplitude from the wheels in order to improve handling and riding of the car. You can't notice they are worn or bad in any other method but to replace them. Luckily it isn't so expensive thing to do. Those vibs on lowers speeds while accelerating had solved before with right drive shaft replacement since there were some play in the bearings on the inner joint. So, after that there hadn't been no vibrations till the summer last year when it has started to show again. In the past 4 month I changed both drive shafts (on one I even changed bearings on inner joint I managed to find brand new ones since on another side I put one shaft from scrap yard). It put some vibs under control but there were some of it left and since it is very nice car for driving where you can feel every singe part of the road and road surface so smoothly and nice, I can feel those vibs are still there. Now while I am writing about it has crossed my mind I did replace left drive shaft (used one from scrap yard) but I didn't changed bearings on its inner joint although I didn't find any plays in them...maybe I will do it since it is not so expensive.....in fact pretty cheaper then get down differential and try to find out is everything ok inside. On the other hand since the inflating tires has some influence on the vibrations I am wondering were the culprit(s) somewhere in the suspension or it might be in the drive shafts (bad bearings on inner shaft) as well but I don't see any connection between damping capabilities and drive shaft? Or maybe I am wrong and there is connection between it? I forgot to thank to you and Nick on your responses to this issue! So "Thanks you guys!".

Yes I drive on the same road way back home and there is the place vibration occur. It is because I can't drive 120 km/h or even higher on other place than highway. I think that has something with it but no matter that shows up even on the another smooth surfaces but in some different amplitude I might say.

Well, there must be some tinny play in the gear pinion bearing or tooth inside the diff so when the diff hit certain revolutions it could start to vibrate and I am feeling it as steering wheel shake. I can't see what else could be.... Interesting thing is that tire pressure has some relation with that vibration and that's the thing I can't figure out but following the logic of the automotive suspension where increasing or decreasing tire pressure has influence on the springing load or amortisation level of the suspension then there must be either something wrong with the suspension where some plays in components occur who can't be found or with suspension set up regarding the capability of the natural frequency amortisation. I know modern cars suspension is very sensitive on natural frequency amortisation since nowadays cars are because of that very precise in handling and gripping the road so every little play or inaccuracy in any component can cause some unexpected troubles with vibration leveling. @Nick I have already done it all that you suggest and everything was fine and as it should be. I even borrowed dial gauge and check the lateral and radial run out of the wheels while they are on the car. Run out was completely tinny (0.1 mm over all) and it is well into boundaries of the tolerance. I measured the rims also. Everything was fine. So only diff has stayed unchecked. Most likely I will sell the car as soon as I get out of my loan....

Today I was at the most advanced garage in my region and although they don't have studded plate I think they did a nice job with the balance. But unfortunately there were no difference in the vibration. It is still there and everything is completely the same. It is speed related and I think this must be 2nd order vibration which means something that run the same speed as tyre don't run true and since I have changed the brake discs, wheels hubs, driveshafts, which means everything that run the same speed as tyre (including driveshaft bearings inside inner joint on the right side) so only differential left to check.......damn car....

Well at first I will try to do balance in few garages and to see if it will correct this situation than I will try to test differential but I don't have any idea how to do it without removing completely gearbox off the car. I could find any plays inside the box but for that I have to get the box on the table out of car and it is really big job to do which will last much longer than few days. I don't think it is possible to test diff on some other way than that ones but I will ask few mechanics who are masters in their job. So answer is that I am just going to act on this info and I will post findings here. I hope it is just matter of balancing but according to previous experience it is something else.

Hey guys what do you think about this http://www.vibratesoftware.com . Some guy in USA made an software by whom mechanic is capable to determine vibrations origin. It is very interesting. They provide as an example some vibration chart which looks like and when you match vibration you measured on the board with engine RPM you should get intersect somewhere on the chart which would point the origin of the vibration. Although chart made for the 4WD vehicle with 6 cylinders engine I tried to used it in my own case calculating where vibrations on the car shows up on 120 km/h, which speed give a wheel 16,6 Hz frequency or 996 RPM while the engine has 2041 RPM. I didn't measure vibrations on the steering wheel neither I did it on the board since I can't find any vibration analyzer device around here (no one ever heard for something like EVA device here). I presume the vibration frequency is the same as the frequency of the wheel since the vibration is speed related and when I did that i got intersect on chart above somewhere around T1 or 1st order tire speed related red line. Not exactly on the line but bit above it much more closer than to T2 red line. I have done countless tire balancing till now but I will do it again and if wouldn't be corrected by it according to vibrate software diagnose i have trouble with the differential.........

I see it now..."made of rubber"...

No it is made by rubber.

No, the balance weight on shaft couldn't be moved on it. I tried to move it since I have one drive shaft removed in my garage and it grips like it is glued on it. On the new shaft I assembled there is weight on it and also can't be moved on it. I didn't see if that weight be placed on some other place on the drive shaft and I don't think it has moved on it though.

Yes it has the balance weight.

Yes completely illogical. I tested the car on the jack and it seems those vibrations could be noticed only on the road under some load or so. I thought about rear springs since those are the only ones things I haven't checked yet and it is possible vibrations can be passed from rear to the front end as well. I found some cases where people have driven their Mondeo-s for years with broken springs neither seeing nor feeling anything odd (since they broke on the very top near the top strut mount). It is very hard to check whether is it gone or not since they are placed in some source of the pit and you can't see nor put the hand inside in order to feel whether everything is ok or not. I tried to made photo but it is impossible to see anything. Could it be possible that springs are maybe not broken but decrease their, let's say that way, spring ability so they are not able to deal with that certain frequency or so.... Also, as you mentioned those rotational mass, I thought is it possible that natural wheel hop frequency on that speed be transferred to the engine bay where some mounts can't pick up those vibs and somehow they are get pass toward steering system? But I didn't notice anything unusual with the engine mounts. They are not worn in any way and don't have any sign or symptom of being on their way to fail. I know it sounds impossible but hey till now I've shot all "possible" reasons. Rotational mass on that speed range only, while driving on the road under load (not while car is on the jack), no matter what road surface is, indicate that trouble is with: wheel, rim, drive shaft (drive train) and gearbox itself (differential to be more precisely). Something there is not balanced or being worn? I am running out with ideas......

Ok Tony thanks for that. I checked those couplings on the steering wheel column too. Very well known and documented problem on the Mondeo Mk3 but there is everything fine. No plays at all. Somehow natural wheel hop frequency is interfere with the suspension in the way it can't be picked up so maybe cause of it tire pressure has some connection with it since bit more deflated tire has less frequency or can help to suspension to take bit more vibrations than the tire is inflated on more pressure? I am not sure about it just building any theory by whom I could get some light on the trouble pit....

Definitely no noise on the "vibration" speed. Everything is quite normal but that strange vibration. Vibration is bit increased when the steering wheel is moving few centimeters either right or left but only on that 120/140 km/h speed. I will try to be clear. On the way home I am driving to the new highway and that road is bit lean in the left so if I want to drive in the straight line I have to do tinny steering corrections occasionally since that road leaning pull the car in the left. Those corrections are just two or so cm in the right and while doing that I have feeling vibrations are increased than they are when I don't do that. Once again sorry for my English since I am not native speaker and maybe I used some expressions that you don't understand or sounds silly or funny to you . Thanks!