Palmo

Hi Tony, Thanks for your time today. As I said when I phoned you, unfortunately I still have the vibration. As I drove further North it became apparent that there isn't much change to how it felt before. As you said, I guess this leads on to a possible tyre(s) problem. I have emailed Continental UK Customer Services explaining in detail my problems and requesting that the tyres are inspected. I'll see how it goes. Do you have any direct contacts in Continental that you could maybe point me towards (in a PM) that could may be help? At least I have piece of mind that my alignment is fine! Many Thanks!

OK - see you on Wednesday!

I've only just read this! WOW! As already said a stunning and detailed review! Thanks very much for taking the time & effort to post all this info! I have read your advice and will follow a number of points you have raised! Firstly I have just had 4 new tyres fitted (original OEM Continentals). However, I am now experiencing Balancing Problems (see thread HERE). I have arranged to go down and see Tony (WIM) on Wednesday. During this visit I hope to have the wheels successfully re-balanced and the geometry checked / adjusted depending on what is found - I'm pretty sure Tony will be able to improve on the current set-up from what I've read on here about his accuracy and quality of workmanship. To be honest, I have used 3 different BMW dealers since getting this car back in April 07 and I don't trust any of them! The final point is about tyre inflation pressures. My intention has always been to put 2.1 bar in the front, & 2.5 bar in the rear (as advised on the door pillar). However, due to inaccurate gauges, I feel I have never been able to guarantee that I have indeed been achieving these pressures! Every garage airline shows different (cold) readings! I have purchased a Michelin Pressure gauge - see HERE. How accurate are these? I aim to try 2.3 bar in the front, and as I mainly do fast/heavy/long distances I will continue with 2.5 rear, but using the Michelin gauge.

Tony, you may recall me from a previous post several months ago regarding "Instability in Cross Winds" - see BMW KDS Geometry Alignment...... You were very helpful in helping diagnose problems relating to my 2007 BMW 5 Series M-Sport and so were several posters. Regarding that issue, I haven't noticed any real changes, although I must say that the car hasn't suffered from the problem recently as the weather conditions haven't been right to cause the issue. Anyway, I now have another problem relating to Wheel Balancing that I am really hoping you can help resolve for me, even if I have to travel down to you (a longish journey from Manchester). Please bare with me if this post is longish, as I want to give you all the background first. BACKGROUND About a month ago, I had a set of 4 new tyres fitted (you may recall I have a staggered set-up which possibly contributes to the cause of the Cross Wind Instability). I have 245/35 R 19's on the Front, and 275/30 R 19's on the Rear (a very popular size set-up on the 5 series M-Sport). I decided to stick with the OEM Continental Conti Sport Contact 2's as these are the only tyres approved for my car by BMW. Apart from the Cross Wind Issue, I have always found these to be a very good tyre, albeit expensive! On various cars in the past, I have always found Wheel Balancing to be very 'hit & mis' and never found that 'mainstream fast fit' places can do an accurate job - there always seems to be some vibration or shimmy. However, I have always found that having wheels balanced on a Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Balancer have 'always' cured such problems in the past. Please note, that the tyres that were taken off my car (the same OEM tyres that I replaced them with) were very badly worn, one front in particular was very 'slick'. Even in this state, there was no vibration or shimmy. The car has covered 38k miles - front tyres replaced were originals, but the backs were the 2nd set. The front wheels were replaced by BMW at about 20k miles due to a paint finish issue, but my front tyres were re-mounted on the replacements. Upon driving, there was a vibration which BMW themselves couldn't cure (doesn't instill a lot of confidence does it). Anyway, a trip to a Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Balancer immediately cured the problem and I had a further 18k miles of vibration free motoring prior to just having the tyres changed. I therefore decided to have the tyres fitted and balanced by a company that has a Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Balancer, even though this meant I had a reasonable journey to make (this is a different company that I had used before). THE PROBLEM Upon driving the car afterwards it 'seemed ok' on my return journey, but the traffic was bad and I couldn't really get above or maintain speeds above 60mph. Anyway, several days later I noticed that there was indeed a vibration / shimmy from 55mph - 75mph, worse on some surfaces than others - but none the less there! A week later whilst on a business trip I found myself in the vicinity of another Hunter GSP9700 Road Force equipped garage (the one I had used several times in the past with great success). They 're-balanced the wheels'. Again, upon driving the car afterwards it 'seemed ok' on my return journey, but again the traffic was bad and I couldn't really maintain speeds above 60mph. Anyway, several days later I again noticed that there was 'still' indeed a vibration / shimmy from 55mph - 75mph. Finally last week, I was on a visit to my 'in-laws' 'up North' and decided to have a 3rd attempt at having them balanced with yet another Hunter GSP9700 Road Force equipped garage. This time on driving the car, it initially 'seemed' cured. However a few days later (as in each case) I removed each wheel from the car to remove the old balancing weight residue / sticky. Upon placing the wheels back on the car the vibration / shimmy has returned - I have checked and double checked the hubs are clean, the wheels are mounted correctly and that tyre pressures are spot on. This vibration / shimmy is minor in the great scheme of things but becomes very annoying and it is taking away driving pleasure - particularly on long motorway cruises or during spirited driving on long committed bends where a constant shimmy is transmitted to the steering wheel! Each time the wheels were balanced, different weights were placed on the rims, each time suggesting the previous balance was incorrect. The first 2 passed the tyre / wheel force machining test, whilst on the 3rd occasion one front and one rear failed - requiring these 2 tyres to be spun on the rims by 180 degrees before being re-checked and passed, then re-balanced! THE SOLUTION Do you think you could cure this balancing related problem? I understand you use a stud plate to balance, something I don't believe any of the other companies have used, despite having the Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Balancer. One balanced using the wheel centre (same as any old fast fit centre), one used some kind of made up stud type device from the front - but did not use the wheel nuts - so I presume this is different to your set-up? If you are confident, that based upon the information I have provided that you can cure my vibration, then I will make the effort and have the long trip down to you to balance my 4 wheels. As my last front tyres covered 38k miles, I think it would be worthwhile as they will be on the car for a while now. Do I need to book a timeslot (I am thinking sometime mid next week may be) and how much would you charge me to balance all 4? Out of interest what kind of balancer doe you have? In addition, relating to my original post about "Instability in Cross Winds", I'm wondering if you could check my wheel alignment while I'm there. How much do you charge to check this, and then how much to adjust if required? If you'd prefer to PM me with this info, that's fine! Many Thanks, I look forward to your response and potentially meeting you next week!

If it's a v8 M5, then it's the older e39 5 series model which is obviously a different body-shape to the current e60 5 series (which mine is). Therefore I would expect aerodynamics to play a different part - although it may also be affected by this issue. Can you ask him the question? Thanks!

Tony - using your friend's analogy is fine - you've explained things between you both very well. At least now I feel like I have got a good understanding of what is being said and why my car is doing this! From what you've both said, it seems like the 'best solution' would be to change the wheel / tyre combination for a non-staggered set-up. However, I don't currently want to spend this amount of money out and to be honest I love the look of the wheels, their OEM quality & the way the car drives the 'other' 90% of the time. Therefore, as you've put it "pneumatic slip control seems the best viable exit here.... ". So, which Bridgestone Tyre in particular do you recommend?

Tony, I can't thank you enough for the time and effort you (and your friend) have gone to on this. I have read everything in detail and it certainly makes a lot of sense - I'm sure you're onto something here! The comments about all staggered set-up's doing this to some degree I can't comment upon, but what may make the 5 series even worse is it's construction. As 'your Friend' has pointed out the 5 series is a 'slab sided cruiser', but with a very light front end due to an all aluminium construction from the 'A' Pillar's forward (light in proportion to it's size at least). So this will presumably compound the issue with the least stability also being at the front! This is an annoying situation, as I think the car looks and drives fantastic with these wheels fitted 90% of the time. I recently had a trip to Germany and took the car up to just short of 150 mph on one of the autobahns (on a calm day I might add) and it was as steady as a rock! I guess I'm going to have to come to terms with it if it is indeed this phenomenon - at least my mind is beginning to be put at rest in the sense there is nothing actually wrong with my car in terms of alignment etc. etc. I have been considering fitting alternative tyres for a while. What would you suggest? I would want a tyre to remain relatively quiet & comfortable, but remain responsive and be as good wearing as possible (not much of an ask I know). How would you rate the new Goodyear EAGLE F1 Asymmetric or Vredestein ULTRAC SESSANTA - I've heard good reports about both - although concerned about potential wear rates with both. I've had a few sets of Bridgestones in the past and found them to very hard (I understand that is part of what may be needed in this case), noisy and wooden (if that makes sense) - that was on a Subaru Impreza. CamInHead I can indeed confirm that the wheels are staggered: Rims are - Front 8.5 J x 19 (fitted with 245/35/19), Rear 9.5 J x 19 (fitted with 275/30/19).

Any update Tony?

Tony, The tyre type is indeed tested world wide by other members - one of the regular forums I go on is international. I'm fairly sure this is not a runflat vrs non runflat tyre issue. In reality, I know that my car would benefit from having a set of new tyres, as these are worn unevenly and past their best. However, I know for a fact that these being worn aren't the cause of the instability as it has done this from day 1 - even with brand new tyres, when driven in the right (or wrong) conditions. I will be investing in new tyres in the near future. In response to your second comment above - WOW - THANKS GUYS - for the taking the time and effort to be so helpful! It really is appreciated - in a later post you say your friend is 'Pro-Drive accredited' - it's getting serious focus now. Out of interets and digressing a moment - my previous car was a Subaru Impreza, with loads of Pro-Drive goodies, inc. group N / fast road geometry settings done by a very well respected outfit in the Scooby World. It handled amazing! Anyway back on topic.....this problem is so annoying as the car is so awesome most of the time, just really let down when driven in windy conditions. Granted, this is not everyday - far from it, but enough to spoil the experience, especially when having to drive from one end of the country to the other - which I often do, and the weather is poor! I have also just become aware of another interesting fact. A fellow member of another forum who has a very similar aged / specced car to mine has just posted his alignment results that were done back in Feb 08 by another BMW Dealer. They are very similar across the board to mine! And wait for it..............you can probably guess where this is going..........his SAI is out of spec and virtually identical to mine! My SAI figures are - Left: 13 Deg, 31' Right: 13 Deg, 32'. His are - Left: 13 Deg, 33' Right: 13 Deg 27'. Both are against the target setting of 14 Deg, 59' on both sides! Unfortunately he doesn't directly say in his post if he suffers from instability in wind, but does complain that he is not impressed with his handling. I have just replied, specifically asking him to comment on his stability in wind! I will update when he responds. CamInHead, For the record I can confirm that the tyre / wheel combination is indeed a factory fit option and NOT dealer fit. This is an upgrade option and is very popular on current M-Sport models as it replaces the dreaded runflats with non-runflats - the only non-runflat option available on the 5 series other than the M5 itself. See pictures below of my car to see the wheels I'm talking about - you will have seen these on the road no doubt! Just listening to the weather outside and it seems quite blustery - interesting as I am due to go out in the car first thing in the morning. This maybe the first opportunity to drive the car in wind since having the geometry set-up done, although in reality all they altered was the Right Rear Toe (back into Spec). I'm not expecting this to have made much difference, but you never know. Thanks again folks - this is really helping me!

Well thank-you very much for you comments - they are greatly appreciated. On the fitting of 'normal' tyres on a run-flat model - that is BMW's standard response - 'no'. In reality, many 5 series owners have fitted normal rubber to their originally equipped run-flat tyre model. I think all of the reports I have ever read (without exception) have said that the car has been transformed, with improved grip, much better ride quality and so on.... it's almost become the 'first mod'. When I bought my car I wasn't sure which wheel / tyre combination to go with, there was an overwhelming steer on the forums towards 19" non runflats which I think was an excellent choice (apart from the M5, my wheel option is the only non-runflat choice), excellent handling, very good ride quality (which amazed me) and very little tram-lining considering the size of the tyres. My only issue has been this cross wind instability.......Thanks again!

OK.....I understand what you're saying here, but the majority of M-Sport cars (all fitted with BMW's sports suspension) are specced with the optional 'upgraded' 19" wheels. Surely BMW aren't allowing a car to be specced with a wheel / suspension combination that are not correctly matched? I initially wondered if the 5 series (or at least the M-Sport version) had an inherent aerodynamic design flaw as others have complained about similar issues to mine. However, of those that have complained about similar issues, there appears to be no pattern: some are SE models - fitted with 'standard' suspension and runflat tyres of 17", others are M-Sport Cars (sports suspension) with either the 18" runflat's or 19" non-runflat's like mine. A good few months ago I drove across the M62 (one of the highest motorway summits in England). My car was terrible as it was very windy - anything above 55-60mph was almost undriveable, certainly keeping the car in the lane was very difficult. Later that evening, I exchanged posts with another guy on a BMW forum, who by pure chance had driven the same road, on the same day, in the same direction about 20 minutes behind me. He said his car hardly moved. His car was of identical spec to mine (including wheels / tyres) except his was the more powerful 535d engine (same basic engine just with twin tubo's & automatic gearbox). Both cars were also within 2 months of build date. This has therefore all led me to believe there must be a specific issue with my particular car (and indeed those cars that experience this problem) rather than a generic problem. Do you not think the SAI reading could be causing this then? Is there anything else contained within the alignment figures which is a cause for concern. I must thank-you very much for your time spent today on this!

When you say the results for the lower car are incorrect, do you mean that the alignment figures printed on the sheet are incorrect, or that these figures are printed accurately, but the car has been set-up to the wrong spec? Or simply that they have measured the setting's incorrectly? Wouldn't fitting OEM Wheels cause other problems that may then cloud the issue, as the OEM wheels will have runflat tyres, which mine don't? My wheels are OEM, but were an optional upgrade. Do you think the car maybe set-up for the standard wheels and not my upgraded wheels? For what it's worth, at the top of the printout, it does refer to my vehicle as follows - which is all correct: BMW: 5 series - E60 (2002 - ): All Rear Wheel Drive Models: without AFS (Active Front Steering): Sport Suspension (with lower ride-height): 19" Wheels.

The car definitely drives 'perfect' in calm 'everyday' weather conditions - I'm an experienced driver and have had a host of performance vehicles in the past. It drastically changes however when there is a cross wind (not too bad with a head on wind). A number of people have driven the car with me present and experienced this (although there are never the right weather conditions when I go to my delaers to demonstrate), including my dad who has been a motor mechanic for over 35 years - he is not an alignment specialist though. He has checked the car over on a ramp, and there is nothing visibly wrong i.e nothing clearly bent or hanging off. The car is exceptionally well looked after with NO kerbing (not one mark on the 19" wheels) and never been in any accidents. The tyres are NOT runflats. I have the optional 172M 19" alloy wheel upgrade fitted from new, which uses conventional rubber - I have the OEM Continental Sport Contact 2's fitted both front & Rear in a 'staggered' configuration. The dealer tried to tell me that the SAI wasn't an issue and sort of passed it off as normal, saying this was more an issue on certain BMW models - but not a problem on mine? Whilst this is virtually even on each side, if I'm reading things correctly (I'm no expert) it is however, almost a full deg below the min tolerance? Also, on the sheet the Caster Target data is not specified, so whilst I can see the values are different from side to side, I can't see if these figures are within spec? What is your general view of the set-up? I would really value your comments as this is driving me crazy - especially on a car I paid the best part of £40k only 18 months ago, with this problem being present from day one. I intend to go back and push further but need to understand what I'm talking about. Why would the SAI be so far out? Thanks very much for your time. Martin

Tony, Yesterday evening I sent you a PM on the Omega Owners Forum, after reading several of your previous posts there, which has led me here. I'm looking for your expert advice! Below is a copy of the PM I sent to you. I own a BMW 525d (3.0d) M-Sport, 2007 LCI model. I have owned this car from new (April 2007). Since day 1, I have experienced considerable 'instability in cross winds'. I have complained numerous times to BMW and never managed to get anywhere. However, the car remains very stable in calm conditions and handles very well otherwise. Therefore this problem only rears it's head on breezy - windy days. To cut a long story short, yesterday I manged to get a local BMW Dealership to carry out a full KDS Geometry Alignment with agreement from BMW UK under warranty - even though the car has now done 33k miles (due to the problem existing from day 1). In addition to this 'instability in cross winds' issue, I also suffer from uneven tyre wear. The results are as follows: Tyres The car is fitted with the optional 172 M 19" 'staggered' wheel set-up. Front tyres (245 / 35 / 19) are original and have covered = 33k miles (always run with 2.1 bar of pressure - specified by BMW). Rear tyres (275 / 30 / 19) were replaced at 19k miles and have covered = 14k miles (always run with 2.5 bar of pressure - specified by BMW). Tyre Depths Inner / Middle / Outer (all in mm) Right Hand Front: 3 / 4 / 2 (Note: the Outer shoulder on this tyre is worn 'smooth') Left Hand Front: 2 / 5 / 3 Left Hand Rear: 2 / 3 / 4 (Note: the Inner edge of the original tyre was worn smooth, this second tyre is wearing the same). Right Hand Rear: 3 / 3 / 4 Alignment Results Attached below are the actual alignment figures – including before & after. Sorry but my scanner is not currently working so I have taken a picture - not sure if you will be able to read this? Conclusions What strikes me from this is as follows: 1. The Right Rear Toe was out and has been corrected. 2. The SAI is out of Spec and HAS NOT been adjusted - I believe this is not directly adjustable? If I'm reading this correctly this is almost 1 Degree out of spec on both sides? Could this be the cause of uneven tyre wear on the front and the instability in cross winds? If so, why is the car so stable in 'normal' 'calm' conditions? 3. No target data is present for the Caster, so I don't know if this is within spec? I would really appreciate your thoughts on this. Is there anything that can be done to correct the SAI back into spec? For the record, I have owned the car from brand new (it literally had 3 or 4 miles on the clock) and it has not been involved in any accidents. Thanks in advance - your time on this is appreciated. Martin

Thanks for this info. Why are you not happy with the OSF Camber setting?

Thanks for comments. £56 is for the arm. However, I have asked a similar question on an Omega forum and apparently it's a common problem that these sieze. Seems there's two options: 1. Soak with loads of WD over several days before visiting a wheel alignment centre - often works. 2: Remove from car and place in a vice whilst heating them up - usually works too. So, my only real question remaining is around the Steeering Wheel being off-centre. Do the above alignment figures (particularly the rear off-side) point at the cause of the Steering Wheel being off-centre? I'm looking at going to the alignment centre on Drury's Lane in Oldham (listed as a trusted centre on here) - this is fairly local to me.

Hi, first post on here. Looking for some advise. Recently went to have my Vauxhall Omega (2.5TD - 1999) wheel alignment done as the steering wheel has always been off centre (to the left) since I have had the car. When the garage went to adjust the rear he said the "off-side Rear Track Control Bar was seized" and so he could not adjust. He tried to heat this up to free but with no joy. Apparently the near-side was also very tight but he managed to free this a little. The end result was that three of the 4 wheels were aligned within spec? - see following for details - , but the off-side rear is out. Presumably this is the cause of the steering wheel being off-centre? The Before and After settings are as follows: These settings seem to be all over the place to me - even though they all appear to be 'green' after adjustment except the off-side rear toe. Anyone in the know care to comment - the car does seem to drive OK. It would appear after ringing around that the rear track control bars are only available direct from a Vauxhall dealer at a retail cost of £56 each. Can these be purchased from anywhere cheaper do you know? Cheers, would really appreciate any advise.