Tony Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 Balance is everything between rate and reaction.....method is an art! Setting the coils commands understanding, even i struggle with this one, any education here would be welcomed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacRS200 Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Hum.....Might be able to do something here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted March 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Hum.....Might be able to do something here Indeed you are well aware my understanding of coilovers 'the set-up' is somewhat...... limited In explanation my work has been to recover the consequence not fit the product. Neil you have worked with me in this area many times, i personally feel a one-to-one session in the new centre would complete my understanding, but other people without that privilege would value your guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jap Devil Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 The first set of coils I fitted (Apexi's) to the IS were a real nightmare - poor ride quality and knock knock bloody knock all the time. If I managed to cure the knock on the front offside it would reappear on the rear nearside! The HKS Hipermax RS coils I now have on the IS are perfect - awesome ride quality and quiet. I have the dampening set to 100% on the front and to 75% at the rear. 100% at the rear is just too hard! Likewise, the TRD coils I have on the MR2 are just fine, dampening set to 80% at the front and 60% at the rear. Very easy to adjust the ride height too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted March 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 The first set of coils I fitted (Apexi's) to the IS were a real nightmare - poor ride quality and knock knock bloody knock all the time. If I managed to cure the knock on the front offside it would reappear on the rear nearside! The HKS Hipermax RS coils I now have on the IS are perfect - awesome ride quality and quiet. I have the dampening set to 100% on the front and to 75% at the rear. 100% at the rear is just too hard! Likewise, the TRD coils I have on the MR2 are just fine, dampening set to 80% at the front and 60% at the rear. Very easy to adjust the ride height too The 'knock' seems to be a common complaint on most coilovers, do you know why?... what's causes the noise? If i were to spend £1000 on a set and it made the car sound like a 'brass band' i would not be at all happy. Also the damping ratio at 100/75 on the IS.. is very different to the 80/60 on the MR2 is this due to engine position or something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jap Devil Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 I came up with the dampening settings really just by experimenting with the adjusters to give the optimum ride. I think that the differences are as a result of the weight distribution. Remember that the MR2 is less than 1,300Kg and has almost perfect weight distribution front/rear (48/52%), whereas the fat IS comes in at almost 2 tonnes and is front-heavy. As far as I can fathom out, the knock comes when the piston either tops or bottoms out, which suggests that there is an optimum ride height for a given car on a given coilover where the piston sits somewhere in the middle of the dampener. Does this make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted March 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 I came up with the dampening settings really just by experimenting with the adjusters to give the optimum ride. I think that the differences are as a result of the weight distribution. Remember that the MR2 is less than 1,300Kg and has almost perfect weight distribution front/rear (48/52%), whereas the fat IS comes in at almost 2 tonnes and is front-heavy. As far as I can fathom out, the knock comes when the piston either tops or bottoms out, which suggests that there is an optimum ride height for a given car on a given coilover where the piston sits somewhere in the middle of the dampener. Does this make sense? Yes..... and it explains why when you alter one side of the car the transfer adds load elsewhere so the knock continues...were does it end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacRS200 Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 I think that the differences are as a result of the weight distribution. Remember that the MR2 is less than 1,300Kg and has almost perfect weight distribution front/rear (48/52%), whereas the fat IS comes in at almost 2 tonnes and is front-heavy. As far as I can fathom out, the knock comes when the piston either tops or bottoms out, which suggests that there is an optimum ride height for a given car on a given coilover where the piston sits somewhere in the middle of the dampener. Does this make sense? Think the problem that you had Mike, was that the springs on the Apexi's may have been too soft for the IS3. You had the same 10kg/mm springs as I have on the Tezza. Like you say, I thought the knocking was caused by the pistons probably topping out, bottoming out you know about with a hard thud. Even though you adjusted them using my method you could not get rid of the knocking, whereas mine are OK now. On ride height, there is an optimum spring position for suspension travel. IMHO height should be adjusted by changing the overall length of the whole damper assy and not by winding the spring up or down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jap Devil Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 I'm not so sure Neil, the HKS Hiper's have compression of 10kg/mm front and 9kg/mm rear - same as the Apexi's. Also Anees has the Apexi's on his IS200 and his knock like a bag of bones! The big difference I'm seeing with the HKS and the TRD coils is that the length of the dampener itself is not adjustable like with the Apexi's. Only the spring length is adjustable and it seems to make all the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 I came up with the dampening settings really just by experimenting with the adjusters to give the optimum ride. I think that the differences are as a result of the weight distribution. Remember that the MR2 is less than 1,300Kg and has almost perfect weight distribution front/rear (48/52%), whereas the fat IS comes in at almost 2 tonnes and is front-heavy. As far as I can fathom out, the knock comes when the piston either tops or bottoms out, which suggests that there is an optimum ride height for a given car on a given coilover where the piston sits somewhere in the middle of the dampener. Does this make sense? mr2 is about 950 kg and any inbalance is hardly near perfect lexus is200 is about 1400 kg, and has a 50/50 perfect balance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jap Devil Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 I came up with the dampening settings really just by experimenting with the adjusters to give the optimum ride. I think that the differences are as a result of the weight distribution. Remember that the MR2 is less than 1,300Kg and has almost perfect weight distribution front/rear (48/52%), whereas the fat IS comes in at almost 2 tonnes and is front-heavy. As far as I can fathom out, the knock comes when the piston either tops or bottoms out, which suggests that there is an optimum ride height for a given car on a given coilover where the piston sits somewhere in the middle of the dampener. Does this make sense? mr2 is about 950 kg and any inbalance is hardly near perfect lexus is200 is about 1400 kg, and has a 50/50 perfect balance 950Kg....noooo way 1290Kg.....full tank with passenger. (front axle 530kg, rear 760k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 I came up with the dampening settings really just by experimenting with the adjusters to give the optimum ride. I think that the differences are as a result of the weight distribution. Remember that the MR2 is less than 1,300Kg and has almost perfect weight distribution front/rear (48/52%), whereas the fat IS comes in at almost 2 tonnes and is front-heavy. As far as I can fathom out, the knock comes when the piston either tops or bottoms out, which suggests that there is an optimum ride height for a given car on a given coilover where the piston sits somewhere in the middle of the dampener. Does this make sense? mr2 is about 950 kg and any inbalance is hardly near perfect lexus is200 is about 1400 kg, and has a 50/50 perfect balance 950Kg....noooo way 1290Kg.....full tank with passenger. (front axle 530kg, rear 760k quite right , was thinking of mk1 mr2 not sure you can allow a passenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jap Devil Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 not sure you can allow a passenger Apparently that's what they do........no doubt it's the skinniest SOAB runt in the factory who gets to sit in the chair! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Singh Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 The first set of coils I fitted (Apexi's) to the IS were a real nightmare - poor ride quality and knock knock bloody knock all the time. If I managed to cure the knock on the front offside it would reappear on the rear nearside! The HKS Hipermax RS coils I now have on the IS are perfect - awesome ride quality and quiet. I have the dampening set to 100% on the front and to 75% at the rear. 100% at the rear is just too hard! Likewise, the TRD coils I have on the MR2 are just fine, dampening set to 80% at the front and 60% at the rear. Very easy to adjust the ride height too Its really odd why Fargo and yourself had the knocking (yours are fargos ones iirc?) I've been in Fargos car with the Apexi's and yes i heard the knocking, but the quality i felt was very good, although his ride height was maybe -45mm lower than std. Mine have been great, i only got knocking on the rear with no weight, add some weight and its vanished The Kits are spec'd for Altezza's not the IS300 from my memory (i originally imported 5 sets of these on LOC few yrs back) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 the knock would not be the piston making contact, if this was the case then the stroke of the damper has been critically designed,badly!! the knock usually comes from the spherical top mounts if fitted, moreso the problem can be caused by piston movement inside the damper body Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jap Devil Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 the problem can be caused by piston movement inside the damper body Which suggests to me that Apexi have a design/QAQC problem. I don't have such an issue with the TRD's on the MR2 or the HKS on the IS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Singh Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 the knock would not be the piston making contact, if this was the case then the stroke of the damper has been critically designed,badly!! the knock usually comes from the spherical top mounts if fitted, moreso the problem can be caused by piston movement inside the damper body Ahhh but stroke of the damper can be altered on the Apexi... MacRs200 tinkered - http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/ind...topic=25192&hl= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 no even on coilovers, the stroke of the piston will be within the area covered by the maximum and minimum height of the coils, if you raise, or lower the car outside of the agreed parameters of course your going to run into problems, but i would still be supprised to see there being contact, i had 50mm shorter springs fitted to the TTE dampers, and they still do not knock, as the piston is still operating within its maximum travel on the compression stroke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jap Devil Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 the knock would not be the piston making contact, if this was the case then the stroke of the damper has been critically designed,badly!! the knock usually comes from the spherical top mounts if fitted, moreso the problem can be caused by piston movement inside the damper body Ahhh but stroke of the damper can be altered on the Apexi... MacRs200 tinkered - http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/ind...topic=25192&hl= You haven't been listening at all......whatever the position of the cylinder/dampener/spring, the feckin car bounced and knocked like a bag o bones.... which is why now I don't have the problem..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Singh Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 koool...Well, i have no knock... my ride is smooth and comfortable... wouldn't mind something a wee bit firmer but i'll live Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacRS200 Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 the knock would not be the piston making contact, if this was the case then the stroke of the damper has been critically designed,badly!! The Apexi's have a maximum travel of around 90mm. With the car jacked up the weight of the wheel should fully extend the damper, I measured the distance between the top of the damper cylinder and the bump stop, that equalled 90mm. no even on coilovers, the stroke of the piston will be within the area covered by the maximum and minimum height of the coils The Apexi's have no maximum or minimum height for the coils, the bottom mount can be anywhere you want. The bottom mount is a ring that can be screwed from one end of the damper cylinder to the other. Put both of the above together you could easily position the piston such that there is insufficient travel in either direction, given that you only have 90mm to play with. The Apexi's bottom mount is effectively a threaded cylinder that screws onto the damper body, using this you can change the length of the entire damper cylinder and hence alter the ride height. Coilovers that don't have this must rely on the height of the spring and will be designed with longer travel to enable height adjustment. IMHO the setting of the spring height is critical on the Apexi's where as it is not on other coilovers. @ Mr Singh - I have Fargo's on the Tezza and they don't knock, the suspension "rattles" if seriously abused over a "rippled" surface but no more that I would expect from a hard suspension set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 The Apexi's have a maximum travel of around 90mm. With the car jacked up the weight of the wheel should fully extend the damper, I measured the distance between the top of the damper cylinder and the bump stop, that equalled 90mm. that is correct, however the car is knocking under compression so the open length is irelevent The Apexi's have no maximum or minimum height for the coils, the bottom mount can be anywhere you want. The bottom mount is a ring that can be screwed from one end of the damper cylinder to the other. exactly the same as the TTE/HKS/TRD coils and pretty much every other coilover (hence coil-over), there has to be a minimum height and a maximum height, in the specifications, im not on about physical adjustment, the parameters set by the manufacturer Put both of the above together you could easily position the piston such that there is insufficient travel in either direction, given that you only have 90mm to play with. im not disputing, the play, im saying if set up within the specified open/closed length then there should be no piston contact The Apexi's bottom mount is effectively a threaded cylinder that screws onto the damper body, using this you can change the length of the entire damper cylinder and hence alter the ride height. Coilovers that don't have this must rely on the height of the spring and will be designed with longer travel to enable height adjustment. to me it sounds more of a case that a generic cylinder is being used with a generic piston and rod, the only specifics are the physical mounting points, a well designed coilover will allow for enough piston travel at full closed length IMHO the setting of the spring height is critical on the Apexi's where as it is not on other coilovers. it seems so, which is a shame, a coilover should allow full use of its available designed travel without interferance from ill correctly matched piston, or damping valves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacRS200 Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Ok Mat First off how do you know "the car is knocking under compression". When I first had the coilovers fitted the springs were pre-compressed by 20mm, the car compresses the spring by 30mm so that left 10mm of travel before they "topped out". Having ridden off road bikes I know what topping out feels like. Mimimum and maximum height.......You have to stay within the manufacturers spec, yes course you do, but what are they. To allow a greater latitude in suspension travel for spring only adjustment the piston must be allowed a longer stroke, that means a longer cylinder, more damping oil and hence more un-sprung weight. Not good. A generic cylinder is Ok provided adjustment is allowed in other areas e.g. spring rate, total length of strut and damping. Using this you can get enough travel in both directions. Just takes a bit of time to set up, no "whack em in" and wind the spring down to get the height I want. The Apexi's do allow "full use of the available travel" provided you set them up correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alnug Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 ok i know this topic is old lol but i thought i would add my thoughts....how are the apexi springs wound? are they progressive? I did an experiment with my OEM Honda sports suspension which has progressively wound springs on the rear and what i found was that where the springs were wound closer they has some sort of plastic spring isolator on the coils...i removed theese and would get a knock on compression....my feeling is that the spring coils are hitting each other.....could this be the case with the Apexi's?...... this leads me to another thought if the spring coils are knocking when they are removed....surely even when the isolators are in place (which eliminates the noise), they are still knocking together under compression....and leads me to think....are the springs too weak for the car? I also notice that once the isolators are removed the car drops a further 1cm or so and ride is less harsh in the rear..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted January 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 I also notice that once the isolators are removed the car drops a further 1cm or so and ride is less harsh in the rear..... Even if the springs were progressive it's academic if the isolators are touching... Reads like the coils are not up to the task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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