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Alignment....the big con


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Various methods are described to encourage you to resolve tyre wear or handling issues, additionally members in forums are keen to advise but often fall victim to the same miss-information, read carefully and stay ahead of 'alignment the big con'

 

Tracking/Alignment

Is linear, this measurement shows no concern for any other angle. This form of measurement is the most common in the World and the most damaging.

Angles measured 1

 

Four wheel Alignment

Uses the rear wheels as a scale to centre the steering rack.... then the front toe..... this is better but is assuming the rear is centred.

Angles measured 2

 

Four wheel Laser Alignment

Same as above.... be wise!

 

Geometry/Primary

Will image the exact rear centre line to permit a centred steering wheel.. additionally the front and rear camber positions will be measured. This is the most common form of Geometry and i consider this as 'basic'

Angles measured 8

 

Full Geometry/primary and Secondary

Is absolute but harder to understand. Few places even with the equipment measure the Secondary angles, these include...

Castor

KPI/SJI/SAI

Scrub radius

included angle

TOOT/Ackerman

Delta curve

and so on

 

Most areas that involve rapid tyre wear or handling issues need to be read from the 'Secondary' data, even more important if the car has been modified or for diagnostics after an accident.

Angles measured 15+

 

Not easy reading indeed, millions of pounds change hands every day for 'Alignment', a need to be wise could save you £ssss

 

One more thing to make the 'blood boil'.. The Primary and secondary Geometry has a customer destination?

 

1: Primary is the 'dumb' customer version

2: Secondary is with held unless requested and named the 'Technicians version.

Edited by ScarFace
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Before I joined these forums and Logged onto Tony's Posts, I knew absolutely nothing about car geometry.

 

I thought if the car was wobbling, for want of a better word, it was due to tracking and/or wheel balance. My eyes are now open wide, and trying to ingest all this information.

 

Thanks Tony

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is it a con ?

 

or is it the fact that the technicians ( :( ) dont know what they are doing or what they should be acheiving

to go through the motions and end up with a result is what the techs do and most of joe public accept

if only the public had the knowledge to say "its not right" then maybe these centres would look into training and giving a good service

 

the problem is: that bad geometry wears tyres down, worn tyres is every tyre retailers fortune , so in theory the worse they set the geometry the more trade they get :(

a viscious circle for the retailer,

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Before I joined these forums and Logged onto Tony's Posts, I knew absolutely nothing about car geometry.

 

I thought if the car was wobbling, for want of a better word, it was due to tracking and/or wheel balance. My eyes are now open wide, and trying to ingest all this information.

 

Thanks Tony

 

Tiss the whole point.... this 'gray area' is smothered by the industry.... 'Alignment' is a quick fix (for them)..

 

Peter you are a perfect example of how 'Geometry' hurts people.... it sounds so complicated.. and it is in certain areas but 'Domestically' it's not!....... having experienced the before and after results you are 'qualified' to advise :( ...... Welcome to the team :( ... ok... but your experience is valuable for other members suffering similar experiences.

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Alignment is a way for the tyre sheds to fleece Joe Public......

 

Oh....BTW matey you know your inners are all worn? It's cuz of the tracking's bad, right matey....we can sort it for you mate, for £14.99 plus da VAT...mate

 

Tell 'em to go f*** off...mate

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Alignment is a way for the tyre sheds to fleece Joe Public......

 

Oh....BTW matey you know your inners are all worn? It's cuz of the tracking's bad, right matey....we can sort it for you mate, for £14.99 plus da VAT...mate

 

Tell 'em to go f*** off...mate

 

£30 is the average in the UK for front wheel Alignment.....

 

Mike what i would love people to say if offed Alignment is....... Align the wheels to what?....... 99% of 'crap fit fitters' will not be able to answer.....

 

Then tell them to........... 'go away' :D

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The average punter is believing what "quick fit" so called pro's tell them is wrong with the steering,i have told loads of people about WIM but when you start talking about castor....k.i.p and the like it just goes straight over their heads.I have a tough time trying to educate people (with my very limited knowledge) about the affects of a proper geometry set up and the pounds they will save in tyres.

 

I know how you feel now Tony.

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The average punter is believing what "quick fit" so called pro's tell them is wrong with the steering,i have told loads of people about WIM but when you start talking about castor....k.i.p and the like it just goes straight over their heads.I have a tough time trying to educate people (with my very limited knowledge) about the affects of a proper geometry set up and the pounds they will save in tyres.

 

I know how you feel now Tony.

 

Most people in a forum are wise to the horror of fast fit purely because the destruction is so visible... Mr Average out there is not so privileged..... it's people like you that try to educate (at whatever level) that make a difference..... have a look at this.....

 

post-2-1143801576_thumb.jpg

 

 

Both of the front tyres were worn in this fashion.....and both had only done 1500 miles from new :lol: the owner bought the car second hand from a main dealer and returned several times insisting the drive didn't feel right..... several times he was told 'Everything is ok'.... obviously not! sad fact is the owner was at the mercy of the dealer....then WIM became involved, suddenly all costs were paid by the dealer toward new tyres and the geo.... no offer of compensation was possible because the tyres did not 'blow out' so final consequences were 'hearsay'.

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  • 2 years later...

:D Oh here we go.... newbie with a Lexus IS200 SE and fairly bald inside edge of my Avon ZZ3 on the front offside more than the front nearside I had these 4 brand new tyres alligned when new on the 29/9/07 and paid good money to HiQ in Dunstable only 5000 miles later looks as if the tyres need replacing, the guys at HiQ swear blind everything was done properly and that because I change lanes on the motorway by crossing the cats eyes this knackers my tracking as well as other things. :D After saying all this the nice guys have invited me back to have a free tracking... thanks... But, will I be any better off, will they fix it or will I be buying 2 more tyres so I can replace them again in 5000 miles...

 

Any recommendations and guidance will be most welcome! And Tony, I may be paying you a visit in Chesham, Im hearing your good????

 

Help!

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:huh: Oh here we go.... newbie with a Lexus IS200 SE and fairly bald inside edge of my Avon ZZ3 on the front offside more than the front nearside I had these 4 brand new tyres alligned when new on the 29/9/07 and paid good money to HiQ in Dunstable only 5000 miles later looks as if the tyres need replacing, the guys at HiQ swear blind everything was done properly and that because I change lanes on the motorway by crossing the cats eyes this knackers my tracking as well as other things. :mellow: After saying all this the nice guys have invited me back to have a free tracking... thanks... But, will I be any better off, will they fix it or will I be buying 2 more tyres so I can replace them again in 5000 miles...

 

Any recommendations and guidance will be most welcome! And Tony, I may be paying you a visit in Chesham, Im hearing your good????

 

Help!

 

Welcome David.... From what you say in your Email only about 10% of the tyres width is involved. If this is the case then the problem is the historic Lexus camber/ castor issue.

 

Unfortunately basic alignment cannot see these angles so "alignment the big Con" has found another victim.

 

Obviously i cannot explain why one tyre has worn since you claim not to have hit anything but in truth with the current condition of the roads the chassis has countless impacts.

 

As for their "cats eye's theory"............ That's "Pants".

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Yep, saw me coming... What suprises me is that if this is known in the industry, why do they want to con us Lexus owners and not try to fix the problem???

 

So... I went in to HiQ today and the guy, rather larger than he sounded on the phone was very nice and offered a free wheel alignment test and 'speiled' about calibration only 2 weeks ago, put on his super tracker, (lights, mirrors and black lines), fired off a few figures to me and told me smiling that everything is fine with the tracking and maybe it is the camber, so partially truthful and helpful. I'll give the guy an 6 out of 10 as he said, "I can't do anything about it", but advised I go to another place which have the full super-duper kt, I said WIM in Chesham, he said this is in dunstable so I thought nothing ventured and I had sometime to waste.

 

So they plugged me in, all singing and dancing on computer, lots of lights and 75% in red, (now red always concerns me), the first thing they said is your wheels havent been alligned, they are out, look ???? Well ... I did.... AT WHAT!!! Give us a clue... but red is bad yeah?

 

So they agreed with each other and then said to me that the tyre wear is relevant to the readings and allignment is..... I KNOW.... I wish I read your reply before going out this morning, my whole day may have been different!

 

So to bore you all, here are my readings... hmmm, sorry.....

 

Front Axle Previous Values Final Values Data Bank Min Typical Max

Total Toe -00*46' +00*07' -00*06' +00*06' +00*18'

Partial Toe L -00*11' +00*04' -00*03' +00*03' +00*09'

Partial Toe R -00*34' +00*03' -00*03' +00*03' +00*09'

 

Camber L -00*54' -00*56' -00*51' -00*21' +00*09'

Camber R -00*34' -00*38' -00*51' -00*21' +00*09'

 

Caster L +05*16' +05*46' +06*16'

Caster R +05*16' +05*46' +06*16'

King Pin Angle L +08*24' +08*54' +09*24'

King Pin Angle R +08*24' +08*54' +09*24'

 

Out of Alignment -00*10' -00*08'

Track Diff -00*17' -00*17'

 

Rear Axle Previous Values Final Values Data Bank

 

Total Toe -00*08' +00*08' -00*00' +00*12' +00*24'

Partial Toe L -00*02' +00*03' -00*00' +00*06' +00*12'

Partial Toe R -00*11' +00*11' -00*00' +00*06' +00*12'

 

Camber L -00*35' -00*35' -00*53' -00*23' +00*07'

Camber R -00*43' -01*43' -00*53' -00*23' +00*07'

 

Thrust Angle -00*07' -00*07'

Out of Alignment -00*22' -00*21'

 

Now, I'm imagining half you guys nodding your heads, understanding these numbers, and scratching your chins knowledgably, and then there are some of you who probably think, he's paid out again hasn't he.....hmmm :mellow:

 

Well, someone tell me please what to do next! point me, draw me a map, Im sure there is going to be a second edition, maybe an encore.... Cheers and I await your responses..

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from what i see the Toe out and camber at front would contribute to the inner tyre wear, thing is with these things..the reading is only as good as the setup involved....they also didn't seem to meaure the caster? It also seems they didn't bother setting the right rear toe to centre spec either....(really annoys me when people have the equipment and don't even set things properly! to what's specified). This means that the thrust angle is off (ideally should be close to 0)..basically means you have rear axle steer.....is your steering straight? I'm also seeing -1*43' for right rear camber..is this a typo?? (Is there no rear camber adjustment for the IS?)

 

I'm not quite sure what to think really.....by not adjusting the rear toe properly basically your front alignment numbers even if they are all green are inaccurate.............

 

Anyway it would have been a good excercise to see if they could verify the readings by letting you drive off then on again to see if they have truely set it....

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from what i see the Toe out and camber at front would contribute to the inner tyre wear, thing is with these things..the reading is only as good as the setup involved....they also didn't seem to meaure the caster? It also seems they didn't bother setting the right rear toe to centre spec either....(really annoys me when people have the equipment and don't even set things properly! to what's specified). This means that the thrust angle is off (ideally should be close to 0)..basically means you have rear axle steer.....is your steering straight? I'm also seeing -1*43' for right rear camber..is this a typo?? (Is there no rear camber adjustment for the IS?)

 

I'm not quite sure what to think really.....by not adjusting the rear toe properly basically your front alignment numbers even if they are all green are inaccurate.............

 

Anyway it would have been a good excercise to see if they could verify the readings by letting you drive off then on again to see if they have truely set it....

 

Your on the ball aren't you. :mellow: I think we will enjoy our meet at the new centre :huh:

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from what i see the Toe out and camber at front would contribute to the inner tyre wear, thing is with these things..the reading is only as good as the setup involved....they also didn't seem to meaure the caster? It also seems they didn't bother setting the right rear toe to centre spec either....(really annoys me when people have the equipment and don't even set things properly! to what's specified). This means that the thrust angle is off (ideally should be close to 0)..basically means you have rear axle steer.....is your steering straight? I'm also seeing -1*43' for right rear camber..is this a typo?? (Is there no rear camber adjustment for the IS?)

 

I'm not quite sure what to think really.....by not adjusting the rear toe properly basically your front alignment numbers even if they are all green are inaccurate.............

 

Anyway it would have been a good excercise to see if they could verify the readings by letting you drive off then on again to see if they have truely set it....

 

 

For all you giggling behind your cushions, there are no typos here.. spelling aint good but figures are as the computer print out....Ouch! I take it?

 

Yes, come on Tony keep your foot high on the 'derrier' of those workmen, some peeps out here need you! Book me in.... Hey tell you what,, the day got worse...

 

I parked in Albion Street, outstayed my welcome by 3 miniutes, I got there as the witch in black was levitating over my car and pleading, begging, tears and lost child never helped, then ching, ching... £50 parking fine.... Gawd, Captain beam me up to a better world!

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  • 2 years later...
The average punter is believing what "quick fit" so called pro's tell them is wrong with the steering,i have told loads of people about WIM but when you start talking about castor....k.i.p and the like it just goes straight over their heads.I have a tough time trying to educate people (with my very limited knowledge) about the affects of a proper geometry set up and the pounds they will save in tyres.

 

I know how you feel now Tony.

 

Most people in a forum are wise to the horror of fast fit purely because the destruction is so visible... Mr Average out there is not so privileged..... it's people like you that try to educate (at whatever level) that make a difference..... have a look at this.....

 

post-2-1143801576_thumb.jpg

 

 

Both of the front tyres were worn in this fashion.....and both had only done 1500 miles from new :o the owner bought the car second hand from a main dealer and returned several times insisting the drive didn't feel right..... several times he was told 'Everything is ok'.... obviously not! sad fact is the owner was at the mercy of the dealer....then WIM became involved, suddenly all costs were paid by the dealer toward new tyres and the geo.... no offer of compensation was possible because the tyres did not 'blow out' so final consequences were 'hearsay'.

 

 

clear camber and toe out issue, would have to assume the camber was not adjustable from the factory...so how did you fix it?

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