S2000 KW Clubsport setup and Alignment

[markff]

Well that's a result, a space came up for Saturday and im all booked up. Whole day open pitlane session for £99! I will take the advice on the oversteer, i guess if i feel its abit loose at the back i can always soften the rear shocks abit. No tuition this time round as its all booked up but i guess it gives me saturday to learn how the car feels and to improve on my technique, especially with the tips posted on here.

[Tony]

Don't forget we love pictures ........ Have a fun day and GO FOR IT

[markff]

Well today turned out to be a mixed day. Lovely sunshine but the over night rain refused to dry out until about 2pm. 

 

Morning session,

 

I could tell after the sighting laps that it would be an eventful day, the track was very very greasy, felt like ice!. On my first time out of the pits i got to the second corner and saw an MX5 spin onto the grass in front of me, hmm better take it easy. Started making my way round and the low sunlight made it very hard to tell what areas were dry and what were wet. The car was an absolute handful!. The AD08's offered very little grip in these conditions and i could not get any sort of heat into them. Even my brother was struggling to get his car to go round without sliding everywhere and thats a fwd mini cooper s that is normally great under all conditions.

 

I set the KW as they came out of the box, i was well aware that this would not be suitable for wet conditions but figured that i would take it easy and see how i get on.

 

On my first lap i went into a corner and as i got just out of the apex and onto the gas i could gently feel the rear begin to slid, not a massive slid but it continued on for what felt an age and when i corrected it i thought i had possibly put too much opposite lock on as the car reacted quite harshly. The car was sliding with even a hint of power at the rear which made things very difficult. Really did not feel confident enough in my abilities to drive in these sort of conditions. The AD08's really weren't working well. This moment completely ruined my morning session because it really felt like the car was on an edge.

 

I went out a couple of times after that but everything was going past me, i think sometimes im quite harsh on my driving ability as alot of other cars have electrical aids like TC and these make a huge difference. My friend in his Seat Leon Cupra could chuck it into any corner and the car seemed to spit him out the otherside. Where as with my car its my ability thats keeping it on or off the road. Im the first to admit that im not a great trackday driver but i cant help but look at some of the other cars and think how much of that fast lap was down to the TC and not the driver? I mean anyone can slam there foot to the floor mid corner and let the TC sort it out for them.

 

I adjusted the front and rear dampers right down to pretty much full soft and it had little effect on the car. It still felt very very nervy. At this point i was getting abit frustrated because the last time i done a trackday back in august the car was spot on but then again i had done 5 on that suspension and pretty much got it setup how i liked it. 

 

Afternoon Session

 

We went back out on track at 1 oclock and a dry line was beginning to form and the sun was out but the cold winds and low temperatures seem to hamper any of the drying out of the track. The car felt alot better but it was very difficult to get a consistent pace because some parts of the track were bone dry and others were still damp. Requires alot of concentration which is difficult when you've got traffic in front and behind. Had a few small moments and then came into the pits to chill out for abit.

 

Went out again at 2pm and it was like a totally differant car compared to earlier, on the dryline the car was immense and i was really starting to up my pace. Instead of going backwards like i had done in the morning session i was holding my own. Came into the pits and the tyres were actually warm this time and the pressures had gone up a fair bit. After abit of tweaking with the pressures i went out twice more and eachtime the track got drier i became alot more confident. The damp line was still very dodgy and my lack of ability to heel and toe on downshifts meant that sometimes changing down i could feel the rear throwing a wobbly.

 

Standard of driving was pretty poor today, I always move over as soon as i see someone quicker than me in my mirrors. Twice today i was stuck behind people who refused to indicate or acknowledge that i was there. I really don't understand the mentality of these people. On a wet day like today it is even more annoying because you know that if you duck inside the corner its more than likely going to have no grip and your going to struggle to get round. Drivers brief was interesting with some of the highlights below

 

- The guy doing the briefing had just stated " YOU MUST WEAR A HELMET ON THE SIGHTING LAPS", Some plonker 10 seconds later puts his hand up and asks that very exact question again.

- Someone asked if they have to tape up there lights

 

One guy got black flagged for driving with his door open..........

 

So i have a few things to mull over at the moment,

 

im pretty sure my rear anti roll bar is too stiff, it made a big difference going from the OEM bar to the Eibach bar and im wondering whether i should remove it and refit the softer OEM on. Even more so now that i have a stiff spring rate and some good dampers all round. Plus it wont cost me anything to remove the bar and refit the old one. If the rear of the car feels too soft then i can always stiffen it up abit. 

 

My AD08's are nearing the end of there life and i need to decide whether to buy some AD08r's or look elsewhere. 

 

Overall it wasn't the best trackday I've been to but it was enjoyable, im glad it got better in the afternoon otherwise i would of left the day feeling abit dejected. My videos have been ruined by the low sunlight so nothing to see im afraid people. It was a good education into how slippery a race track can be with just a tiny bit of dampness.

 

 

[markff]

[Tony]

Great report thanks for posting....

 

It reads like it was a combination of conditions and a little bit of experience....Obviously the tyre condition is a major factor as is the track temperature. Personally i would turn down the front dampening and/ or up the rear to help with the turn-in. Then maybe think about changing the roll bar.

[markff]

I think what i will do Tony is leave everything as it is at the moment and then see sometime next year how i get on when i attend a day with dry conditions. It really was an eye opener because the rear of the car was just all over the place in the wet. When it started drying and the AD08's got warm it was completely different. I have driven in the wet there before in the summer and the car was fine but i guess the tyres were probably warm where as yesterday the weather was 2-3 degree's.

[Tony]

I think you can understand now why/ how so many S2000 owners have spun on the roads.

[markff]

Very true, i have had a moment in the wet before when i tried to provoke it quite gently and it just went, no chance to correct it. Slammed the brakes on and came to an embarrassing stop pointing the wrong way!

 

I need to see if i can get on a car limits day and get some proper tuiton on how to correct a slide, i think it would give me abit more confidence plus an airfield has even more room for error than a track.

 

This a video of the day of one of my brothers friends in his mini, shows how slippy it was

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyx7b_VE4Xk

[Tony]

It's called snap-oversteer ( so much for the S2K 50/50 balance ) but to be honest it's due to many factors including the driver?

 

A car limits day is a great idea. I don't think i could handle a S2K anywhere near it's potential without training, i mean i spun my Esprit three times and to this day i don't know how/ why? Meaning i didn't learn from the events   

[liner33]

Skid training is really important , I was lucky early in my driving career to spend a lot of time on a skid pan plus owning 3.0 Capris from the age of 19 helped no end but I've watched a lot of videos of the s2000 and they worry me !

 

The skyline would hang the back end out but was easy to control , the zed feels like you can play with the limit but might be an illusion

 

Very rewarding when you get it right though

[Tony]

The S2k worries me as well.... Lovely looking car but boy do you need to stay alert in anything under 100 degree temp....... In the dry!

 

As we know Honda did some radical changes in 98 i think, or maybe 96 i can't remember but although this helped the S2k still had this snappy issue and i can't recall how many i've seen scrapped with a bent arse.

 

Maybe this is why there's a myriad of modifications available for the S2k.... Owners can tune the chassis/ suspension to fit them rather than allow the car to be in charge.

[markff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYBYNPEVAkw&feature=youtu.be

 

This guy crashed his back in May (2.30mins onwards). He entered the corner doing 70mph where as im doing 60 with AD08's. I have been to Snetterton 6 times this year and on 3 occasions i have been told about separate S2000's that have crashed. In the dry thou mine feels pretty good and when it does break away its progressively, in the wet its a different story.

 

I bet if you looked at the cars that crashed you would find most of them weren't set up correctly or had recent alignment. It makes a huge difference but people are paranoid about getting the alignment done and finding loads of seized adjusters!

[adam_r]

im still not sure callig the s2000 an unpredictable car is fair.

driving the car how it is supposed to be driven with a driver who is capable and aware, they seem incredible value for money:

 

[adam_r]

and this one toying with a corvette at spa

 

 

 

in both vids, cars only have light modification. .. no turbos or superchargers used!

[Tony]

Both look good in the handling department..... Difference between track and road though is you can cut the corners on track.

[adam_r]

exactly Tony... which takes me back to one of my original comments....

the S2000 was designed as a road going track toy, it was numbed down in its later years as on the road which is their main use.. people dont have the concentration / driving skills that are required for driving on track.

 

the S2000 needs your full attention when driving. doesnt matter if your pootling about or pedal to the metal, the chassis and suspension is designed to give feedback and direct handling.

 

unfortunately when on the road people dont give their cars 100% attention, cars like bmw, merc or FWD motors don't punish you if you lift off mid way through a corner, the S will.

 

go back to older pre 1990 RWD cars and they will do similar things if you lift off around a corner with no electronic aids

[Tony]

I think you summed that up perfectly...... The S2k has a high dynamic index meaning the frequency requires hight than normal inputs. That's why i couldn't drive a F1 car because i couldn't cope with such a high HZ

[markff]

Afternoon all,

 

Well its a new year and i have booked two trackdays up already. One at the end of Feb and one in summer but hopefully they will be the first of many. I have sold my old Meister R coilovers and a few other bits and pieces i had lying around cluttering the place up.

 

One thing i am concerned about at the moment is my aftermarket Rear toe/ bump steer kit. During the years that these kits have been out there have been alot of failures or knackered rose joints leading to knocking or suspension failures, My car is taking a battering on the roads at the moment. Potholes everywhere from the poor maintenance done by Hertfordshire Highways. Then when the car is on track the suspension will get quite a through work out. What worries me is that if i suffered one of these failures it could end up in a big accident, whether its on the road or track.

 

 

Thats just one of the failures of other brands of rear toe arms/bumpsteer kit but i do worry that my Megan ones will oneday give up the ghost, When i had them installed one of the threads sheared off very easily which didn't put my mind at ease.

 

What i want to ask one of the technical guru's is will i really miss the rear toe arms if i go back to the OEM items. When i had them fitted i didn't notice a massive difference in how the car handled. The main bonus for me was that it made the job for the alignment person easier because they adjusted it on a thread and not on a concentric bolt adjuster that has the potential to seize. The bolts are not seized at the moment and if i grease them there's no reason for them to seize if i went back to the OEM toe arms.

 

I have heard that with the S2000 that if you want to run the car low with lots of camber then it can put the toe measurement out to such an extent that you cant get it within the correct range using the standard toe adjusters but i shouldn't suffer that problem as i don't run excessive camber or run the car low. If anything i have the car lowered maybe 10mm or so with less than 2degree's negative camber. The OEM items are reassuringly tough and strong compared to the aftermarket items available

 

 Obviously without slating these brands etc what do you think about these aftermarket suspension arms. Is it something you would recommend to your customers? Most of them use a rose joint type bearing without any protection from the elements. I have these at the moment except mine use a rubber boot to protect them from the elements. I have read no failures from people who use the megan kit like i have below apart from worn out joints but then most of the racers replace there's every 12 months or so.

 

 

I have already ordered some brand new OEM toe arms as it will put my mind at ease. I have also ordered some new rear tyres so i will probably run the car into WIM before my first trackday and get them to install the OEM arms and set everything back up properly.

 

Be interesting to read some of your opinions.

[markff]

Looking at the lower photo the most worrying part for me is how far the arm is spaced off on the section that goes through the hub. It must put alot of stress on the threaded balljoint type section. I know its there to correct the angle of the toe arm to fix the bump steer but it just doesnt look right from a mechanical point of view.

[Tony]

Agreed.... The adjustment is incorrect. The inner end needs to be reduced so the outer pick-up point is vertical not perpendicular. But saying that i assume the image was taken with the car jacked up?

 

OEM arms would be better assuming the negative camber can be used to assist the toe correction. Often i find the OEM toe adjuster runs out of adjustment meaning the camber needs to be sacrificed. Rose joint adjusters work fine assuming they have a Teflon liner but they are not maintenance free, coming loose being the biggest worry.

[markff]

Hi Tony,

 

That photo wasn't of my car, just an example of what i have fitted. Grab a photo outside earlier this is what mine looks like with all 4 wheels on the ground. Not the best angle but the arm looks quite square to me.

 

 

Quite surprised at the amount of corrosion on the adjuster nuts, as well as the bottom of the car. Will need to get under the car in the summer with a drill and wire brush and get everything cleaned up and painted. From looking at the angle of the rear toe arm it looks correct. It be as horizontal as possible when the car is at rest?

 

I know that as the suspension compress the angle of the arm changes and thus the toe changes with it. Am i right in thinking that if you took a unmodified S2000 then the original toe arm  should be horizontal but if you then lower the car thats where you cause the arms angle to change and the bumpsteer issue becomes worse. With stiffer suspension then this should be less of an issue? As the suspension wont move as much thus not effecting the toe to such a large extent? On a smooth track with stiff suspension settings you probably wouldn't suffer any problems unless you started bumping the car up alot of curbs.

 

Sorry if im talking crap here Tony, I know its irrelevant really as im going to get the OEM items fitted anyway but it interests me.

 

I might stop being lazy and fit the new OEM toe arms myself and then drive it up to get aligned, i have ordered all new bolts washers etc. I cant imagine its a massive job unless everythings seized which is unlikely seeing as they were fitted in March.

[Tony]

The arms condition is typical so no worries there. You don't get bump steer from the rear but you do get toe gains/ loss on bump/ droop which needs driver correction.

 

The rear toe displacement on the S2K on bump is toward positive i believe, this is the longitudinal position not horizontal position although this is easily confused. A rose joint belays a static toe setting but as you said there's still a dynamic influence but as also said this is dismissed according to suspension travel.

 

Bump-steer in it's true sense is when the front wishbone and steering arm follows a different radii. Normally this is due to lowering and incorrect roll centres. This condition permit's or violates the available pivotal orbit of the track-rod end. See image...

 

 

I would advise you attempt to regain the OEM arms assuming the camber correction works within the adjustment range? If not then the additional adjustable arms will be needed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[markff]

Cheers Tony, all useful information. I appreciate you spending time on the subject

 

I know when the car was at this height before and set up on a hunter machine the operator set 2.3 degree negative camber and 0.30 total toe with the OEM arms. I run alot less than that nowdays so fingers crossed i should be fine when i bring it to WIM. 

 

I have ordered the new arms from the states for peanuts compared to the UK price, brand new Honda original parts with new bushes and balljoint for the hub. When they arrive i will book some time off work and get them fitted up. Will keep the thread updated and i will take some proper photos of the adjustable arms to see any signs of wear tear etc. Chances are they are fine but worth having a once over.

 

Thanks for the help!

[Tony]

Your welcome..... Don't become a stranger it's a great thread.

[markff]

Right abit of progress in terms of parts,

 

I got my new OEM toe arms and bolts etc. from http://www.hondapartsonline.net/. Saved loads of money ie Rear toe arms from Honda UK are £240 for two. In the USA they are $80 for the two. Even when you add shipping and tax i still saved over £150 on parts. The adjuster bolts are massively cheaper in the US then they are over here. Its a poor show from Honda really.

 

Fully Assembled arm with new fasteners adjusters etc. I will be making sure i put alot of grease on the shanked part of the bolts to prevent seizure to the inner ring of the bushes.

 

 

 

These are tough old items compared to what i have fitted at the moment so i will be glad to swap them over.

 

Baffled Sump ready to be fitted as oil surge is something i dont really want especially as im going to stickier rubber.

 

 

Kumho V70A tyres from camskill, new with 4.8mm of tread so i dont expect them to last much past the summer at most but should bring alot of fun!

 

 

Tony im after abit of advice regarding the tyres, do you think i should scrub them in with the current alignment settings WIM set me up with for a few miles before alignment?

 

I was thinking of fitting them and getting 100 or so miles on them and then changing the rear toe arms which will put all the alignment out of bonk and then driving it to WIM to get it corrected.

 

I know one thing for sure i have a busy month as i also have a leaking rocker cover gasket which i need to do and also brakes and other things to bleed. Its good thou i enjoy the work when its not p**sing down!