markff Posted November 16, 2013 Report Share Posted November 16, 2013 Hi WIM, I was recommended to you via a fella called Les who works for STS Type Pro's in Barnet. I do most of the maintenance on my S2000 myself and i have done quite a few trackdays over the year and even thou my meister r coilovers sort of done the job i was persuaded to get some KW clubsports after my brother fitted some of their competition suspension to his mini cooper s. Anyway after fitting the KW's and some uprated anti roll bars i get the following check done on the suspension To be honest the car wasn't too far out apart from the front toe and Les didn't want to address the front toe and end up messing up the camber settings. I know how the camber is adjusted using the bolts but they obviously didnt feel too comfortable about adjusting the toe. Which is fair enough as they didnt charge me for the check so i know they were being honest. Im looking to get my car corner weighted so that the KW's are correctly set up and then a full alignment to bring things back into spec. Previously i had got DMS do this with the meisters but they have since folded and i have read alot of horror stories about there work. What sort of price would it cost for the corner weighting and trackday alignment? Cheers in advance for your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 Hi Mark The KW's you have is the spring perch the only method of height adjustment or does the body adjust like the Meister R? Also the current geo final positions don't make sense, so i don't know what Les was thinking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markff Posted November 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 Hi Tony thanks for the reply, The KW's use a helper spring on the coilover and then the only adjustment for ride height and preload is the perch itself. I had the meisters before and like you said preload and height could be adjusted independently. Les didn't adjust any settings, he just put he car on the alignment machine and said the rear axle was fine only a tiny bit out. Front toe is obviously out as the front wheels are pointing in differant directions but he didnt want to adjust because he didn't seem to confident about what it would do to the front camber. I know that you can adjust the front and rear camber using the camber adjuster bolts but he didn't seem too keen on touching anything on the car. He also said they wouldn't set the car beyond their machines S2000 spec. This pretty much limited what they could do because i wanted the camber and toe set up more for trackdays than normal road driving. This would of put every setting pretty much in the red on his machine bar the caster! I cant moan about the guy as he was honest and didnt charge me for the check, i would rather someone say they don't want to mess with it then try and set it up and the car drives like a dog. He pointed me in your direction for getting it set up. DMS had a habit of not ensuring the steering wheel was dead centre when doing alignment and it became quite frustrating to keep going back to get it realigned till they clamped it right. Good alignment places are few and far between nowdays. Chesham isn't a bad drive for me as i often drive to Amersham for work (I live cheshunt junction 25 m25). I would be chuffed if you could have a look for me, i could book it in via your website or maybe pop in one day and have a chat if thats okay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 A few points..... We don't do corner weighting at Chesham and for these reasons.... 1: Outside of competition there's very little gain. Put it this way if the car was correctly balanced and you fill/ empty the washer bottle then you've blown it, fill, empty the fuel tank, you've blown it? 2: The S2000 is very nose heavy as i'm sure you know so in order to "move" the sprung weight the KW's front would need exceptional pre-load and the rear totally relaxed, that's not good. 3: If weighted in this fashion the moment of inertia would make the rear very loose and corner out the squat would make the car push. On the KW's the type of balance needed would involve moving weight ( battery ) and alike or actually adding weight. Calibrating the S2000 chassis is a bugger so i feel Les was a little shy getting involved but saying that i'm not knocking him because i know he has to work within the OEM datum. Well your car's not OEM so new chassis positions need to be evolved. Well we do this everyday so it's not a problem for us. One thing that is a problem is the human ...... Our position is to manipulate the tyres saturation coefficient limits, plus maintaining the suspensions articulation radii but!!..... We can generate different levels of control, let's say "tight or loose" conditions, so the drivers desire/ ability might differ hence the reason i say the human is the hardest part to calibrate.... On the plus side we work a solid line of communication between the calibrator and the driver but the line needs to be honest. At the moment the chassis positions are very messy. Steering rack is not centred so the steering wheel is left-hand down. The camber positions are set to make the car very tight and unbalanced handling left/ right. The castor's are set to low for anything on track and the rear toe is to far toward negative for an S2000. The KW's need to be set so the unsprung transverse arms are horizontal ( maintain the roll centre ) The pre-load should be kept at the minimum "hence the helper springs". Then the chassis calibrated to your ability/ expectations/ limitations....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markff Posted November 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 Hi Tony, Thanks for the great reply, you will have to bare with me abit as im not a suspension guru, i have a basic understanding of camber, toe caster etc. To maybe list my experiences with the car, i do alot of trackdays at Snetterton. I started with a standard 06 car set with an alignment for fast road/trackday. It was my first time on track and obviously it was a steep learning curve. As i have progressed i have fitted stiffer ARB's and the meisters but suffered alot of problems with the meisters not settling during high speed bumps. No matter what i did i couldnt get the rear of the car to settle quick enough. I opted for the KW's because they seem to be the best compromise between trackday handling and day to day comfort. They come preset from factory for a balanced right height and the car does sit very well, especially as i havent adjusted the ride heights at all. I like a car that is more of a tendancy to understeer because im the first to admit i dont want to discover that my talent runs out mid way through a corner and the back comes round and i cant recover. This is the first rear wheel drive car i have owned (18 months) so im always abit tentative around track but i've done 6 now and i have improved alot. Im there for fun not to push the car to its very limit as at the end of the day i want to be able to drive it home in one piece. I really appreciate your feedback, your knowledge has instilled faith in me that you know what you are doing which i have never got 100% with other places. I know from the work DMS done that one of the front caster bolts is seized which is common but i know they lubricated everything else to prevent it seizing. In terms of setting up the coilovers so that the roll centre is correct is that something that could be done during the alignment or is it more time consuming. Just for your info the cars suspension spec is - KW Clubsport coilovers with adjustable rebound and compression - Front white line 30mm anti roll bar - Rear adjustable Eibach anti roll bar set to its softest position - Megan Rear toe arms - Adjustable anti roll links on order for clearance issues more than preloading the bar - AD08 Tyres What do you advise i do? Book the car in to be set up and looked over and then go from there? Thanks alot Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 As said looking at the geometry report it would understeer... If you haven't changed the coil height since fitting then the height would be correct for the roll centre, KW are not stupid with default positions. With a 30mm front roll bar the rear adjustable bar needs to be set to mid, maybe high setting. At the moment there's to much transition at the rear corner-out under squat. The AD08 Tyres like to run hot so the rear toe needs more lateral heat applied but you need to allow a heat cycle before and after your hot laps. Monitoring pressure gains is very important. At the wim centre we use nitrogen which is not influenced by heat. As things stand i think your best just to book in, let us measure the actual chassis position in a bit more depth and together we can take it from there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagitar Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 At the wim centre we use nitrogen which is not influenced by heat. Please Tony - Google Amonton's Law - no gas is exempt from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Agreed not totally but the level of moister tends to be high in fast fit centres due to poor maintenance/ ignorance or whatever. As we know aircraft and high end competition cars use nitrogen, albeit a more corrosive mix but whatever our option is better than pumping a swimming pool into the tyre like some others out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam_r Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Tony. what gave you the indication that S2000's are nose heavy? to my mind and knowledge they are almost 50/50 weight distribution as the engine is up against the drivers bulk head. IIRC its classed as a Mid engined car as the engine is so far back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam_r Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 markff. whilst this may be your first RWD car I would advise you dont adjust the suspension to get understeer instead of oversteer. the bumpsteer introduced by the rear suspension design is impossible to eliminate, and the chassis is very well balanced so in a hard fast turn if your not careful the bumpsteer will unload and this is what causes people to spin. if I where you I would get the suspension set up for fast road ( lots of info on this at s2ki uk forum ) and get yourself on to a limits day. you cannot live in fear of what the car may or may not do, find out what it does do in a safe environment where you cant damage anything and you will learn an awful lot. what I should be saying is, the s2000's chassis and handling characteristics is very well ballanced so learn to enjoy the way it drives and provides feedback, dont chop its balls off and try and make it handle like a FWD car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 They suffer with historical horrendous lift-off over-steer due to the engines low position and suspension rake. My opinion of nose heavy is moment of inertia and despite Honda's attempts to belay the problem with suspension and geometric changes the problem still persists. If the balance 50/50 was so good why do so many owners seek corner weighting?.... Because it doesn't feel balanced, Don't get me wrong i love the car but she is a devil in disguise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam_r Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Tony. alot of owners want the car to corner weight as they are unsure of the cars handling characteristics. a 50/50 weight distribution RWD car will tent be to rear happy. many owners will come from FWD cars and not expect the back end to act as it does. from many times driving one hard I found the chassis and rear of the car to be rather predictable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markff Posted November 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 The corner weighting issue is mainly caused by me feeling that its pointless spending aload of money on coilovers and then not getting them set up. I done alot of reading up on the KW and one of the racers in the states said that when he fitted his KW V3's that when he put it on the corner scales it was only out by half a turn on one spring mount. Im not one to have the car slammed as its not pratical on a day to day basis. If i take the car to Tony and he says they are fine for what i want to use the car for then great i will stick with his opinion. As for what tony said about the corner weighting and it being mainly for competition use i agree with that because i can see how preloading one axle could cause problems under certain conditions. I went to TGM a few years ago and spoke to Tom about various things and he talked my brother out of corner weighting his mini cooper S trackday car because at that point it still had full interior and he said it would be a waste of time. My brother then stripped out the whole car installed methanol in the boot and welded a cage in and then got it corner weighted and said it drove like a totally differant car. My S2000 has alot of modifications on it but i guess the bulk of the original cars weight is in the same places as it left the factory. It might explain why i was so underwhelmed the first time i took the car out after corner weighting, it felt the same as it had before! As for the fear of the car this all disappeared after fitting the whiteline front arb, the car felt great on track last time out and it was the first time i managed to get some real heat into the tyres. I was surprise how long i could stay out on track with the AD08's without them overheating and during the course of the day i suffered minimal tyre wear. Previously the car was set up like this by DMS this was prior to coilovers and rear toe arms The car was very forgiving on track and the only downside was that the AD08's felt like they had alot more to give than the OEM suspension, it was rolling and swaying all over the place and with it being an 06 it had one of the softer suspension set ups. Tony i will book it in and get it looked at, in the mean time i will try and lubricate all the adjusters to try and make the job a little easier! Oh and i take the note about trying to not drive the car like a FWD, to be honest i haven't found the S2000 a handful with the alignment settings above in dry conditions, bags of grip but my one "moment" was in the wet when i spun 180 degrees with very little throttle which was a wake up call! To be fair thou the alignment was miles out as i had just fitted the coilovers which is similar to how it is now! Oh and a video from Snetterton, this was probably the best the car has driven on track, it felt like it had loads more to give. Tuiton will be occuring next year! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A67BzvWCz0 Thanks All! Markforrester99 is my S2ki username, massive thread listing my 1st trackday and then upto what im doing now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 You drove better as the laps built. Initially you were hugging the apex somewhat..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam_r Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 not bad driving in the video. one thing that stuck me though is you dont balance the car before entering a corner, which is why you may be feeing a little unsure of the limits. as your approaching a corner you lift off = weight transfer to the front of the car without braking. you turn in to the corner, sometimes with no input to throttle or brake, then your back on the throttle too late in the corner. you would be better scrubbing off the speed using your brakes / engine via heel toe rev matching in to the apex of the corner then straight back on to the throttle to ballance the car and pull it through / exit the corner. just a few observations, and whilst your lap times where fairly consistent, you would benefit with some tuition if your local course offers it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Learning curve methinks...... But never "float" around the apex, that's hello Mr Hedge time for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markff Posted November 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Hi, Thanks again. It is definitely a learning curve, i think in the video from my last session in August i was quite abit more confident and quicker but the sound is crap https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GNcswSoBw When you talk about lifting off the corner i understand what you mean but im not lifting my foot fully off the gas, i have it in the position where its maintaining the cars speed. Im never fully off the throttle apart from when im braking. I had some tuiton at a trackday years ago and he banged it into my head that driving a single formula Renault car that if i lifted off the gas mid corner that i would be going onto the grass and its kind of stuck with me.Do you think i should be maintaining more throttle during the corner?. In terms of how the car feels on track the only time it feels abit dodgy is on cold tyres where it wants to slid on the 2nd corner of the track but that goes away once they are warm. Snetterton has claimed alot of S2000's this year so im doing okay so far . Tony - Thanks for the email i will give the office a ring and sort something out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam_r Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 mark. I think you need to brake later which provides the weight forward transfer to the front actually in the corner as you start to turn towards the apex, as you turn in and reach the apex, that time should have been taken migrating your foot off the brake and back on the throttle. in your vids your too slow back on the throttle to help poise the car out of the turn. the way I was taught: 1) brake in straight line 2) still partially on the brakes / throttle you turn in towards the apex. 3) as soon as you hit that apex you need to be off any braking you have and need to start applying more to the throttle. to me your: 1) braking too early 2)turning in with no preload on the front suspension which is causing a slight unsettled feeling. 3) almost coasting around the apex with little to no throttle 4) too late applying throttle to shift weight back to the rear wheels to utalise the bump steer effect the S has. im no means a pro driver, but have had many hours / days tuition during track days and professional driver training. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markff Posted November 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Cheers Adam, Very clearly explained, im the first to admit im new to this so it will take time but i will take your advice and sort out some tuition next time out, probably wont be until the new year but its clear it will be useful. What you explained makes perfect sense when you think about maintaining the most about of grip on the tyres at differant points of the corner. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam_r Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 not a problem Mark. I will admit I have spun an S rather more times than I care to admit.. but this was all on a limits tuition day, and me farting about with the throttle. the S is a predictable car as long as you understand about weight transfer and the implications of the 'rear steer' the S is known for. unfortunately on the public road its difficult to maintain correct ballance of the car through corners which is why so many and spun on public roads. alot of people lift off the throttle part way in to a corner ( fine on FWD cars ) but on the S, the moment you lift, the back end goes light causing the rear suspension to extend and change the characteristics of the tyre contact / toe. well in simple terms you spin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Well said, well said indeed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markff Posted December 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 Right had the alignment done today at WIM. Here are the results Drivers side Caster adjuster is seized which i knew one of them is, thats a pain in the arse but will get round to changing it one day. One thing im abit confused about is that all the right handside shows alot less camber to start with compared to any other of my print outs i've had ie STS and DMS before hand. I know it can change but .7 of degree in 2 weeks? Front at STS 1.2 degree's Front at WIM 0.54 degree's Rear at STS 2.1 degree's Front at WIM 1.52 degree's First impressions are abit tough at the moment but i have noticed the car is pulling to the left a fair bit compared to what it was doing before. If i let go of the wheel on an A-road the car starts moving to the left straight away. I almost have to maintain some right hand lock on the wheel to keep the car going straight where as i haven't had to do that before. Its not the tyre pressures as i made sure to check them before leaving this morning as i know that's one of the most common reasons for steering problems. Tyres are fairly worn should i give it a few more miles to see if they have worn a certain way and that's effecting it? What do you reckon i should do Tony? Must say it makes a pleasant change to go to such a tidy workshop, what i would do to get hold of one of those Hunter machines! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 The numbers look good. What i suggest you do is get a better feeling for the car over the next few days and from there we can work on any pulling issue. As for the changes..... Well we work in a very small measurement arena and although the numbers look miles apart in real world we are talking a fag paper. Additional things like changes in fuel load or even washer bottle level will display a change in the observed data. As you should now we are not a take your money and run away type of company so it's there's residual issues we will deal with them simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markff Posted December 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 Cheers Tony, Will see how i get on over the next week or so and if it still feels like its pulling i will give WIM a ring and get it booked in to get checked. I might be going to Snetterton on saturday if they have a cancellation so be a good chance to test out the new settings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 She's set oversteery so get a gentle feel for the car..... Have fun matey whatever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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